How to Handle Conflict With a Friend

Show notes

The Shadow Side of Friendships: Supporting Friends in Crisis and Handling Conflict

How do you support a friend in crisis, or handle conflict with a friend without losing the friendship? In the last part of the abundant social life series, Randy Lorensen, Dr. John Oberg and Anthony Marino take on the hard parts of friendship.

The first half is about crisis. The hosts talk about what they've wanted from friends in their own hard times, and why being present often matters more than doing. They cover why you shouldn't make big life decisions in the middle of a crisis, shrinking your time frame to the next 15 minutes, and asking more questions before giving advice. They also talk about how grief changes over time, and writing your own feelings down so you can be there for someone else.

After the break, they turn to conflict: how small things that get ignored build up, the difference between healthy and toxic conflict, why not to triangulate, and the drama triangle. They also cover givers and takers, and how to repair a rift by remembering what you want the finish line to be.

Randy shares his gratitude list as an antidote to conflict, and they close with a simple idea: you don't have to win.

Toxic Friendship Signs, Healthy Conflict and Supporting a Friend in Crisis

What you'll discover:

How to support a friend going through a crisis: being versus doing
Why not to make big decisions in a crisis, and the next-15-minutes rule
Healthy conflict versus toxic conflict
Triangulation and the drama triangle
How to repair a rift by keeping the finish line in mind
Gratitude as an antidote, and why you don't have to win

Timestamps

[00:00] Welcome: part five of the abundant social life series
[01:42] Showing up for friends in a crisis
[04:56] What we want from friends in hard times
[05:44] Crisis to-do lists, and helping after a loss
[07:23] Being versus doing
[09:02] Don't make big life decisions in a crisis
[10:40] Shrinking the time frame: the next 15 minutes
[12:15] People have to be open to help
[13:53] "Fix problem" versus strategy: help is contextual
[17:53] Hard advice from people who care
[20:18] Ask more questions before giving advice
[21:53] Grief: the intensity and the frequency
[23:28] Writing it down so you can be present
[24:53] Handling conflict: little things that build up
[26:43] A story about a bank that kept calling
[27:30] Healthy conflict versus toxic conflict
[29:56] Don't triangulate
[33:16] When a relationship turns toxic
[35:42] The drama triangle
[38:07] Givers and takers, and why name-calling doesn't help
[40:32] The golf partner who throws clubs
[42:08] Control, and needing to be better than everyone
[43:44] Repairing a rift with a business partner
[46:10] Remember what you want the finish line to be
[46:57] Cows and buffalo in a storm
[49:26] Randy's gratitude list
[52:39] Grateful and angry at the same time, and journaling
[54:18] You don't have to win
[55:56] Calling a timeout, and Getting to Yes
[57:36] Wrap-up

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About the hosts

This is a hosts-only episode with no guest: Randy Lorensen, Dr. John Oberg and Anthony Marino. (Host bios are on the host pages linked below.)

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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:03] having an abundant social life again with John and Anthony today. And this one, I think there's a lot of wisdom from both of them in getting into the tough parts of the relationship, the real work, weathering the storm, maybe the part that isn't quite as fun, but the part that really pays dividends down the road. And I think you're going to I think you're going to find a lot of benefit in this episode. Enjoy. All right, listeners. Welcome back to Tales of Abundance. Why settle for less? Uh, fifth part of our series on having an abundant social life. And I'm back here again with Anthony Marino and John Oberg. So, welcome gentlemen. Yep. Uh, today we're going to talk about, you know, navigating conflict and supporting friends and, you know, dealing with crisis a little bit. So, some of the stuff that maybe isn't as much fun, but is definitely an important part of a of a deep and meaningful relationship. And as we start this, I think back to maybe the first or second episode in this series. I asked you guys who your who was the friend you would call if you're really in a pickle, you know, your most high agency friend. Yeah. And I think a lot of times that's the person that we've been through the storm or, you know, you've you've been through the [ __ ] with. And sometimes it's the person that you just know would be there. You just, you know, without knowing, but a lot of times it's the people we've been through it. So sometimes that is being that, you know, you were there for them, they were there for you in in the rough times and the and then navigating, you know, conflict even within yourselves, right? So let's uh let's jump into that.

[01:47] And so when you think about your friends, Anthony, like did you want to be that person? It came naturally to me to always be the hero. Did you break your headset? Oh, no. You just didn't put it on. Sorry. It's fine. I'm gonna go get my headset. I forgot about it. Doesn't matter to me. I just didn't want to make sure I didn't break it for you. I'm not a professional podcaster. So, you are now. Yeah. I am now. Yeah. Here we go. Just get paid. That'll that'll help us if you feel professional. So, no, it's it's all, you know, being married at an early age, I Um, you know, you you're always feeling like you're the hero there anyway. So, it's kind of a mindset and and growing up it, you know, living in a workingass neighborhood. You were, you know, you're kind of on your own anyway, you know, a lot, you know, you faced um a lot of things in the neighborhood that you had to deal with and your your your small group of friends had to deal with. So, someone had to be a leader and it was always kind of just natural for me to be that person. So, yeah. And I like doing it. Um, so much so that sometimes I'm doing things that probably overstep a little bit. You know, I think you got to check in with the person first before you undertake the action. I remember 87.

[03:00] Were you Were you in California 87 when the Woodyear quake hit? No. So, I was there and it was nasty, but I remember being up on the roofs like taking chimneys that were broken down brick by brick and I wanted to be someone there. So, like when you when you asked that question about like who would they call, one of the thoughts went through my mind is like I want people to call me. Like I I want to be that. And I don't know that I don't know that that's natural that everybody wants that necessarily, but like for my friends or in family, like I want to show up in a crisis. So, let's say your friend has a crisis. Mhm. Or you have a crisis. We can I mean, we could really approach this from either way. What does that What does that look like being there for them to support them? Let's start with Let's start with being the one that's doing the supporting. Yeah. I I I um a really great friend of mine and confessor and a Catholic priest uh was at one point in his career a chaplain. And I was just thinking about what it must like to be a hospital chaplain and to walk into hospital rooms with people who are more often than not dying and to have that be like your full-time day for a period. And I I I imagined that that was like just exhausting to feel powerless like that.

[04:19] That was the picture that I painted. And with a lot of wisdom, he shared with me that that wasn't at all how he viewed the world. And he said, "Sometimes people just need an unanxious And those two words, unanxious presence, have resonated with me since the day I heard them. Very different than my bias toward action, my bias toward solving, my all the things that I would say come naturally that are the wrong thing to do in the middle of crisis. And um and I and I think about it from the times that I've showed up for people well like that. And the times that I remember going through a divorce where I called people and I wanted them to fix it. And the best mentors in those moments were very kind, generous, unanxious, and unwilling to even try to fix it. Like it wasn't they recognized that wasn't their place, but they could just be there with me so that I wasn't alone. I wasn't isolated. They were that unanxious presence. And so I think that for me I felt like I had really matured in from a place of how do I solve this person's problem for them which I don't find to be appropriate and helpful in many circumstances to how do I just show up as an unanch anxious presence and there are some crises where you do dive in. someone gets into a car wreck, you show up and make sure that all the things are happening. Or um I had a I had a family member, extended family who had a death in the near family and he had to like there's crisis management kind of to-do list has to happen in the first, you know, 48 hours and two. So I think you can show up and help people in that way in some cases. But step one is do I need to just be an unanxious presence and not solve anything is kind of my question number one.

[06:08] you in previous episodes and I like that. So I guess it would be that and in previous episodes you had mentioned a couple of instances where people you know Amber and another friend had shown up and I guess they they were it sounds like they were also an unanch anxious presence but they did take action and they went and solved problems so you didn't have to worry about them. Yeah, I think that's that's a part of like I was talking to someone this week about my nephew's uh mom passed away unexpectedly. He was 24 and left him with, you know, a really tough road to hoe. And I went back and um was sharing with somebody a letter that I had written to him about like, you know, hey, here's the stuff we talked about on the phone that needs to get done in the next 48 hours, in the next two weeks. Here are things you don't need to worry about. And it was also like, I'm really sorry. It sucks you're going through this. It's not fair. I get it and you have to get these things done and I'm willing to help and you're not alone and you can call me. And so I think um balancing balancing the doing with the being is a really important thing to to be aware of. And for me because I overindex on doing I try to push myself to being. Does that make other words I don't because because my bias is doing.

[07:27] I want to make sure that I I I focus on the being because I'm not natural at that and that's generally more helpful to people in my experience. Anthony, you got anything you want to add here? It's all it's contextual, you know. So, I've had a pretty tumultuous career at different places, you know, um suddenly leaving roles and things like that. So, you know, the first instinct is to, you know, call someone on the list that you think can help you move to the next next career. But what you what I really needed was someone to settle me down, you know, recognize that you're fine financially. It's not you're you're worried about your next role and you don't even need a next role, you know, given the way, you know, your finances are and so forth. So it's it was always contextual in that way. And so I was very lucky to have a group of of people that could, you know, both help and also counsel. And not knowing I need the counsel until I got it. Um taught me a lot about how to deal with people in crisis that came to me. So, there's always the wanting to help, give them the next step, but that taught me early on that first things first. Let's make sure I help this person settle down because an unsettled person doesn't make necessarily rational decision and next step in crisis.

[09:07] Go ahead, John. I was say for big things like you know I just I I've for whatever reason a lot of people who are facing um big problems cancer diagnosis divorce um some of the things that they're instructed not to do would be like make really big make really big life decisions like that's not a great thing to do right in the middle of crisis and so then you know I start with some of the most tactical things like do I need to help this person just take a breath and literally not figuratively literally like and so we go through box breathing like breathe in for 4 seconds, hold it for 4 seconds, breathe out for 4 seconds, hold it for 4 seconds and then you know some of the coping tools that I use are are just like I I go through a checklist like am I in physical danger and when I look around in most instances I am not in physical danger. If I am, I need to remove myself from that physically dangerous situation. But then I ask, am I, am I in emotional danger or financial danger? And and generally speaking, I can get through those things to a point of calming myself down. But I've had to take other people through that exercise where it's like, let's just ask a few questions here and, you know, patiently take them through that and then help them to develop those coping skills to get out of that moment of crisis. that's acute in the- moment generally emotional crisis um and and reactive and help them come back to and then and then we go through the idea where you just you shorten the field.

[10:31] You guys have both heard me talk about shortening the field where it's like okay if I'm really kind of traumatized like what needs to happen the next 15 minutes then I take a breath then the next 15 minutes then take a breath and eventually you move to 30 minutes and then an hour and then you know a couple hours then half a day and then a day. Well, I've even heard you say, "What are you going to do in the next 15 seconds or two minutes?" Yeah. If it's really bad, that you haven't heard me say that very often, but when it's really bad, like that's that's what you you really shorten the frame of reference to, you know, just that what can be handled and processed right this very second. And so helping people with that um in that unxious presence, you know, can be really helpful. And then, you know, the couple episodes we talked about how Amber came in and took some of the administrative load off and that was super super helpful. And I I you know, my friend Jeff did that. My mom was in the hospital in the same way and helped me get her from California to Texas in a really tough situation when she's on a ventilator. And so he took some of that administrative load off. And so people do want to share with the lifting in crisis and that's appropriate. Um, but then there are things like where, you know, I have a buddy who was diagnosed with cancer and it was just about being there and making sure that in that case he wanted to know what questions to ask the physicians and and that was a place that I had expertise and could help. But um, yeah, so I I think it's help where you can help, but help where you're being asked to help. Anthony made a comment earlier about checking in with them to make sure they want that help.

[11:59] Like I think probably there's few things that are more useless than helping someone who's not ready for that help and and not just being you miss the opportunity to be there for them first. Be first, do second is my motto to myself. Yeah. And I the other thing I heard so you I think yes, they have to be open to the help. But the other thing you both said you said it two different ways. I'm going to say it even a different way is are they in the right state to accept help? Right. Are they mentally, physically in a place where you're not just talking to a wall? And you I I don't remember you guys both said a version of that, right? Well, it's it's not just that. There there are situations I've been in where the person doesn't even know they're in crisis. Yeah. that they're there is something going on that they're they're about to get blindsided, you know, by something. And it can happen with your kids that that probably it happens more there than anywhere. But so you and I've made the mistake with both not just my kids, but other people advice and they they don't understand why they're getting the advice. They don't even know they had a problem. What are what are you talking about? I'm not ready to do that or I don't need that. I got I got it. You know what I mean? So, um that's why you got to be careful and assess the situation and maybe you got to come back, you know, let that day go or that hour go and then come back and say, "Hey, you know, you called me about you called me the other day and just want to make sure you know that you saw this thing."

[13:44] Well, I think we're saying the same thing. And I think as men, humans do this, but men especially, we start with strategy. Yeah, I'm gonna fix your problem. I wouldn't call that strategy. It's more fixed problem. I don't know. Strategy goes up the way. Yeah, but that's the it's we start with the solution, right? Yeah, that's right. And whether it's strategy or but yeah, I like caveman talk fix mean fix problem because strategy would be strategy would be what's the end goal I'm trying to get to and how do I get there? We don't start with strategy. We start with pound, you know, pound rock immediately, right? And and a lot of times it's the strategy that fits our personality, our beliefs, our values. So I think I think a lot of times as humans, and I think even more so men, that's where we start. And but I think if they're not open to you're just wasting your time and theirs and probably just making it worse, honestly. That's right. But even before that, they have to be in the right mental state. It's I mean, it really is. if they're not if they're not mentally in that place like it it's you have to you know the body kind of well if you're emot yeah if you're emotionally flipped and you're kind of operating through your lyic system and you're not in your kind of cerebral cortex like it's just not I mean you're not going to actually solve a problem at all like and it gets psychologists talk about this and talk about this and talk and then and then you know we try to fight it because we're better than that but it still doesn't work and I don't know at the end of the Hey, there's a time for being and a time for solving and you know and and I think it's great for friends to kind of rally around and help with the crisis and and sometimes that means that if I'm in crisis I can direct all of that.

[15:27] Sometimes the crisis so so bad that I can't and somebody else jumps in to kind of direct all that also appropriate. And but back to Anony's point about being contextual. I think it is contextual and and I would pull kids out and say that you know this is about friendship and and the child relationship while it does have many many similarities there's a different power dynamic there's a different set of responsibilities based on how old they are if they're in you know six versus 16 versus 26 it's really um but in all of those cases understanding what their needs are and making sure I'm serving their needs instead of my needs hugely helpful in that moment. Yeah. I I want to brag on Anthony for a minute, too, that Anthony, you have an ability. I don't know that I've ever seen anybody be able to pull this off quite the way you do. And I don't know, I think it's just a skill set that you've somehow developed and it's a little bit of instincts, but I have watched you. Oh, I gotta be careful here because the instances I'm thinking of this happened in a place of confidentiality and I the the instances I'm thinking of I don't want to get specific, but I have watched you get Okay. No, actually, I've got one. It's me, so I give permission here.

[16:41] Okay. All right. Problem solved. I remember a time I'm so glad we're not live. where I I remember a time where I was dealing with a problem with employee and we were going on with this and I don't remember I was justifying or it was very difficult. I didn't have a person to replace him and it was going to be unbelievably uncomfortable to get rid of this person and I wanted to find replacement because I really it was it was far from optimal to get rid of them and you kind of borderline lost your Right. And most people that's not going to work. But you have an ability and I've watched you do this before. You were you were you were adamant. You were like, "No, I defy you. You fire this person tomorrow and this is what needs to happen." And you I mean you were angry and yelling in this angry Boston, you know, like like I was going to be put on a mob hit if I didn't do it. Um, but it was effective and there's some You've got a way of delivering that. That is Did you fire him the next day? I did. Okay. And it was the right advice. Yeah. And I don't know, there were other people giving me the advice, but you and I've seen you do this and it's effective. I don't again I don't know this is duplicatable by anybody else. So kids don't try this at home, but you have an ability and I think it's because you s that I knew you sincerely were trying to help, right?

[18:15] That makes so much difference when you're in a safe environment where it's a high high trust in which which I and I remember the conversation and it we were I mean there's a number of us there and and it was a I mean that is a very deliberately curated high trust environment for people that we've really we've we've all worked very hard to create the type of environment where if someone's being an [ __ ] to themselves other people can step in and and so but he's right you you you know how to get sharp with people in a in a way that's helpful like a scalpel, not like a not like a knife. Well, in in the context of this whole conversation, you know, we're talking about conflict or crisis for friends and relationships. So, there's a big difference between a relationship and the the big five. Okay. When it's a relationship that I don't think that works. I don't think that the You're talking about romantic relationship. No, no, no. I'm talking about just a an acquaintance that's in crisis. Your 37th best friend, the Yeah. You know, somewhere in the top 20 or whatever. So, that doesn't work there. But with the, you know, in the five are in in the group that we're in. John's right. You know, the you know that the advice you're getting is from people who really care. Now, sometimes the advice is wrong and you could just push it off. I'm never wrong. No, but the intent the intent intent is good.

[19:45] The intent is always always good. And you're looking for the straightforward feedback. You're you you had already opened your kimono to to ask for the help. So, it was crystal clear. Um, but I do think you still have to be careful. You have to pick your spots. You can't just, you know, be like be in that mindset all the time. Well, and and you I think root cause analysis is one thing we've talked about in that group where sometimes we dive in too fast and and someone asks for help and we jump straight to the advice versus asking more questions to figure out where the bottom of it and we've fallen prey to that even though we all know the importance of doing that and we've been together for, you know, coming on 15 years that we still fall prey to not getting to that root cause before because we you got to make sure you're solving the right problem. Yeah. and the right right problem for that person. That's right. Right. And Anthony earlier was talking about, you know, reaching out to somebody and they gave him the advice he needed. Not necessarily the advice he wanted, but it was advice he needed.

[20:48] Almost like they knew they knew better than you did, right? Because they were, you know, less emotional about it. Oh, and I've had lots of times that that I've started to give advice or have given advice where someone pushes against it and I recognize, hey, anything else I say is going to be water off a duck's back. Now, at this point, I'm going to shift gears to being there for them because now I'm going to nurture and invest in the relationship and and even though what they're asking for in their words, what they're really telling me is they need me in a different way. And I've got to be sensitive to that. And so, I want to show up in that way for them in for for that moment. And that could change in moments as they get through it. it. I, you know, I was um taking I was walking with someone who was going through a um contemplated divorce and and they really just wanted answers and they wanted certainty and the only certainty I could give them was it's going to suck for a while and I don't know for how long. But when you're dealing with a situation of grief, you know, there's five phases of grief. We all know there's denial and anger and bargaining and acceptance and and um depression, right? And and they and you cycle through them out of order.

[21:51] uh and you cycle through them lots of times. But what happens over time if it's being dealt with appropriately is the intensity of the grief lowers and the frequency is less and less over time. So like you know my father died I had you know high levels of grief all the time and now you know so I'm 40 years later I'm it's it's hardly ever and low intensity but not zero. it's just, you know, a nanometer instead of a mile. And so, so, so what what I could be certain of was that he would grieve. What I was certain of is it was intense today. What I was certain of is that if he processed it, it would get better over time. And that, you know, the science is that he'd come out the other side regardless of what happened. But the only certainty I give him was he wasn't alone. Like, that I'm certain of. You're not alone because you can always call me. I'm certain that you're grieving and I'm certain that it sucks. I'm sorry you're going through it. And that was like, yeah, that makes me feel better than I was feeling, but not good. In these situations, I think you know the old adage, you got you have two ears in one mouth. It's very, very important that you listen twice as much as you talk. You really want to hear what is coming at you. Be calm about it. John eloquently talked about how to do it. It's in the moment. It's not easy. Yeah. you know, there's emotion, someone's someone's in crisis or, you know, we're going to talk about uh conflict there. You know, that's tough to do, right? Because you there's a reaction and u I take notes, by the way, if um if I'm getting if I'm getting engaged with that person where I'm becoming emotional, I try to write it all down to get my emotion onto the paper so that I can be there for them and let them have the space, right? And that that really and then I'll shred the paper or whatever. But but it it's really just a way of me making sure that I have an outlet for that that's not back to them because it doesn't need to be equal in that moment for me. It's all about them. So I take notes on that when I'm in a highly tense situation as a way of giving an outlet and really creating room and space for the other person. One of the things I appreciate about both of you is that both of you are also willing to have the hard conversation, right?

[24:02] And I think that's uncomfortable, right? Like none of us like doing this. It sucks usually, but you guys are both willing to take the risk, invest the energy, invest the time, and put yourself out there and have the actual hard conversation. And I think that's a I I think that's a big one. And I think it's hard. You know, there's a lot of people that just don't like conflict. None of us like it, but well, avoidant attachment would be one type of thing that happens that people want to avoid. Um, you know, avoid any kind of attachment issue. I think it well maybe that's not exactly the way attachment theory works but there are certainly people that want to um not feel Yeah. Let's go to break on that. When we come back listeners we are going to talk about handling conflict within that friendship. All right. Welcome back listeners. Uh we are today talking about some of the tougher parts of relationships and we're going to go into handling conflict. So you and your friend have conflict.

[25:11] Um again we talked about before the break a lot of people they avoid this right. What's what's the danger if people avoid conflict in this in a relationship? It blows up. People walk away. I mean, one of the first indicators of a divorce in a marriage is a lack of conflict in the early part of the relationship. So, navigating conflict constructively, not in a way that you like blow up and do it in like an unprocessed, unfiltered way, that's not helpful, not healthy, but navigating conflict in a constructive way leads to, you know, deeper friendships, longer friendships, better incident of significant magnitude that sets off the conflict, but normally it's something that can be traced back to a little thing long ago that was ignored. And then there was the next little thing not as long ago that piled on. And then a third thing just yesterday that makes the conflict now about three or four things as opposed to the one thing that started it at the very beginning. It's almost like a customer service issue. You know, customer calls in, they want to get balance, can't navigate the IVR, they get aggravated, they're getting someone on the phone, they yell at them about not being able to get the information.

[26:39] It just kind of fers. So this is this a great so I'm going to tell you a bank story now because this is a great example. I had I had some money in an account at a bank and they kept calling me to offer me financial advising services. And I told him once I was like hey look I appreciate it. I don't want this. Please put me on the do not call list for sales calls and a new banker came in a month later and he called the same sales call. And then three months later a new I was like hey look here's the deal. You need to make a note in my account. The next time someone calls me for a sales call I'm coming in I'm closing all of my accounts. And so sure enough, within 60 days, another sales call, I came in. I was like, "Hey, you need to close all these accounts." "Well, sir, what happened?" And I told the manager like, "Oh, wait, wait." I was like, "No, no, I know. You you you've had six chances and you have a system that shows you and look." And they're like, "Oh, I see it right here." It's like, "Okay, well, I have no like I'm not no malice. I just can't take those calls anymore. I'm done." Yeah. Okay. So, let's talk about healthy conflict and then there's toxicity, right? What's the difference? Somebody's listening, they've got a friend, there's problems, right? So, how do they know the difference if it's if it's just healthy conflict or something toxic that they need to cut out of their life? I think this is tough because it's probably a spectrum. It's not like black and white like this is healthy and this is toxic. It's more like there's a spectrum of healthy to toxic probably um and so we should probably talk about what constructive conflict looks like and what unconstructive conflict looks like. And so I think constructive conflict looks like um you know if someone's bringing kind of a processed set of emotions to somebody to um clear the air or go through kind of issue clearing that's healthy. If someone is bringing in unprocessed conflict where they're unloading on someone while they're in the middle of the emotion, the chances of that being successful are much much lower and generally lead to more conflict and escalated conflict and not very helpful. And so I think um handling the conflict in the moment is generally not the very best way to handle it. So if I if I've got a problem with Anthony, me recognizing it, getting past the emotional part, then getting back to the like when you did this, I felt this and owning my part of it forces me to look at myself too and recognize that it may have nothing to do with Anthony.

[29:14] Anthony, you look like you have more to add. No, it's a it's a complex situation because I can't think of a lot of examples where I had a one-on-one conflict with the person that I brought the conflict to that person or they brought it to me. Most of the time it's them bringing or me bringing conflict I have with someone else and I'm going to one of the top five to try to either and it's a mutual person that's in our in our universe and that's processing that's processing and that by the way I think if as long as you're not trying to triangulate that's a really healthy thing to do is to process that as long as you're not trying to triangulate back keep keep talking about. Well, if you've got if you've got a conflict with person A and you're talking to person B, as long as you're not asking person B to solve that conflict for you, unless you want them to mediate, which is appropriate, but like having them solve the conflict without you as a way of doing it, triangulating not healthy. Yeah. I mean, I I don't think I've done it too much that way. The other the it's usually the other way where the person is trying to get me to see their their way of things and now it's two against one. Oh, yeah. It's not good. Yeah.

[30:29] But but there's a healthy way for someone to ask for mediation from a neutral third party or in the med like a mediator like that that's that can be an okay thing. But it's not healthy if one person's just trying to litigate and win, right? Like so if I bring Randy in to litigate between you and me so he can be the judge and jury while you and I are the plaintiff and defendant and we're just going to litigate back and forth, that's not a way that you're going to make a relationship get better, right? But if I come to you and say, "Hey, Anthony, you probably didn't know this, but when you stepped on my toe, it hurt like shit." And he didn't know he stepped on my toe. I I'm using a ridiculous example on purpose. I mean, if if we have a relationship and he cares about me, he's probably going to be like, "Oh my god, I didn't know I stepped on your toe." But if I come at him and I'm like, "Hey, you know, you mother like you did this. You did that. You did." He's like, "I didn't mean to. I didn't mean to. But it's like that's not But if I can see him in his best light and give him credit for you probably didn't mean to do this. You probably didn't know you did this and you did this and it hurt. Right. If if his reaction is, "Hey, sorry. I'm going to really pay attention." And if he's like, "Well, I don't care." Then maybe you didn't have the relationship you thought you had.

[31:43] Let's Okay. You said it's hard. Let's try and give listeners some idea to identify the toxic. What would be signs that it might be toxic? Because I think a lot of people don't realize. I think they're in the middle of it and they've known this person whether it's maybe it's decades, right? And they're in a relationship and it's toxic and they don't they don't even know it's toxic. What what would be some of the signs? What should they look For for me, if if people are processing the emotion kind of blank check, you know, and kind of unhinged like especially if it's like coming at me like that's just not like I'm in a place where I can hold that space because of my training, you know, and so but but I've I've had other people professionals tell me like, John, while you're able to do that, that's not a reasonable request for most And so there was a time where I was like, "Well, I can do it. Why can't somebody else do it?" And I had professional peers tell me like, "Hey, that's not that's just not a reasonable request for most people who aren't, you know, behavioral health specialists.

[32:55] Like that's just not a it's not a thing." So I So I think the first thing is um in a healthy way, it's making sure that you process it first before you go to the person to share it. And you can do it. You can share the emotion without emotional. Let me let me ask this a way. Can you give me an example, either one of you, of a time when you identified a relationship as toxic? You don't have to use the names. I don't want to throw anybody under the bus here. Although might add a little spice if you want if you want to throw the names and throw them under the bus, but you don't have to. And how did you identify that? like what what made it obvious to you that that was a toxic Well, I can think of an example where an individual um was, you know, for a over a short period of time, call it a month or two, continually just in a in a agitated uh over things about me, others. It it was never he he was never trying to solve anything. He he was just in a continual mode of venting. And um I just stopped taking his calls. It just this was not this was not a good use of my time. It was bubbling over into the community, you know, rather small community, but a community nonetheless. And essentially this individual was effectively ostracized from the community over time.

[34:42] They just weren't ready to be a participant. There was a there was business to be done within this community. There was money on the table. There was places to be, things to do. And there was just conflict constantly. And eventually we just, you know, one by one he was removed from. Sound, it sounds like they were sucking energy, fun, life out of the group. Yeah. They weren't contributing anything positive. They didn't have seemed to have an interest in in wanting to confront um or invest in solving the problem. They just wanted they just I don't know what they wanted. And I think that's really the sign if they can't really define what they want. Um, so that's how I ident that and that that one stands out and it wasn't that long ago. So that got a pretty crystal clear view of that. Unfortunately, you've heard the term drama before, right? People create drama. That's actually a term of art from Steven Kartman who is a created Cartman's triangle is the drama triangle. And so the drama triangle is where somebody jumps into one of three roles in a relationship, forcing the other person into one of the other two relation uh roles. And so the the roles are victim, persecutor, and rescuer. And so when I first heard this, I go, I want to be a rescuer. And then I realized being a rescuer is just as dramatic as being a persecutor or a victim. And so if someone jumps into any one of those three roles, the goal is to get out of all three of them. You don't want to be the victim. You don't want to be the persecutor. You don't want to be the rescuer. You just want to not pick up the drama. And so when someone is constantly introducing drama, drama, drama, like there's a there there's a time where that happens momentarily and that may not be toxic. But if someone is continuously adding negativity into a relationship to the point that it poisons it, it's now Yeah. And and I and to be fair, I think people have different resilience levels for that level, that type of, you know, poison, right? And and so like I I want to give a lot of um grace to my friends who are in a moment, right? And if that moment may last a month or a couple months or a quarter or maybe a year, they have a tough year. It's but there is a point where you know I I would I had a relationship friendship early in my life uh 20s and um this person only wanted it was um they only wanted what was best for them. There was no thought about other people ever. It was um people as resources. It just wasn't and so it came to a point where it just was no longer a healthy it was never a healthy relationship but it became clear to me that it wasn't going to be a relationship to be pursued at all. Let me ask you this. You said people have a different resilience to the poison.

[37:37] I would say people have a different re resilience to all poisons, right? I mean, could be alcohol, it could be drugs. People that drink a lot people that drink a lot develop a higher tolerance. But is that okay? I mean, doesn't make it healthy. Now, look, if I have a really high tolerance for that kind of pain and I'm enabling somebody, it can be just as unhealthy for them as it can be for me, right? Right. I mean, so so I'm not I'm not suggesting that that's good. I'm just acknowledging that it's true. No. You know, I guess what what I think about when I think of this is are are they givers or takers or is there some, you know, is there some balance? Because I' i've had some relationships, especially business-wise. There's some people that were just takers, right? And you give and you give and they take and it's it's not a healthy, but that may not be toxic, right? And this is one of the things I would hope listeners really take away from this. Giving people a label is generally name calling and that all by itself isn't healthy. So when someone's like that person's manic depressive or they're bipolar or they're they're gaslighting me like those are clinical terms of art that have two clinicians giving a shorthand of information from one to another so they don't have to read the whole file. Most people don't know what those terms really mean and so it's just name calling. you can call him an [ __ ] or anything else and you're it's the same thing because most people who use those terms also don't know what those terms mean and so now you're just name calling and so name calling not healthy and functional right so I think when we talk about activities instead of labeling someone using a clinical label that we actually don't fully understand and we're not professionals like I have a real aversion to people doing that it's like tell me what they did but don't don't characterize it in a way that you're actually being inaccurate because I had this happen in a relationship where I was in a romantic relationship and someone said that I had a thing and I was like, "Oh my god, that sounds really serious." So, I went to see a therapist and they're like, "Yeah, you know, on on a nine-point scale, I can't even get you to number two." And so, I went to see another person.

[39:38] They're like, "Yeah, sorry, you don't have that. Third person, you don't have that." Finally, I was like, "Hey, look, I'm going to call the person that found this thing, who's the expert in the world." And they're like, "Well, you don't really have that." like it was like I called, you know, but they had me believing that I had this really serious that that's not so healthy by the way. No, there are other problems that you have, but not that was um I think the list is long and you're well aware of. Let me uh let me be very very scientific and and talk about toxicity. You know, toxicity will make you sick. Sure. Okay. So a very simple example would be the Saturday forsome at a golf course or is it your golf game that makes you sick? No, that that is your golf game toxic. That's who you or or a um a a group of poker players or a a book club or whatever and there's a person in that group that is just never in a good mood. Throws clubs, swears. I told you I was sorry. not necessarily, you know, insulting you or but it just the environment that they're creating is making me sick. I don't want to I don't want to be here, you know, with this club throwing, you know, person who doesn't like any books in the in our club or, you know, is, you know, got an attitude at the table or whatever that that makes me sick. So I don't want that person in my that's how I identify is this is this behavior these words I'm being told is is his or her body language such that it's making me uncomfortable and I don't want to be here and I don't want to participate and I don't want to I've tried and I can't seem to help you. Right? So, you know, the club throw, you know, really, you know, you're not going on tour, pal.

[41:22] Okay, you got a day job. Thank God. Um, is that is that how you behave in the office? You know, that kind of stuff. You try all that, but if it just persists, you know, you just have to you just have to, you know, move on. You can't cure everyone or everything. Yeah. Right. Again, it's a m the the the time you're limited both. Well, it shows it shows up as the opposite of acceptance, the opposite of vulnerability, the opposite of trustworthiness, the opposite of seeing someone in their best light. Like I think I think if you take all those skills and just look at the the opposites of it, then you start to start look what dysfunctional relationships look like. And so if I'm trying to control everything Anthony does or you do or if I'm if I'm always negative or like there's a lot of ways this shows up um if I can never let anyone be better than me at something like there I mean it can show up a hundred ways right um but that conflict look we can talk about why to end a relationship and I think that's a long list of things navigating through conflict is about if if there's an event me first processing that event in whatever way I need to do that. And if I'm not sure how to do that, finding someone, if it was me and Anthony that had the event, then I've got to go find someone other than Anthony to process it with or on my own or whatever's, you know, healthy, functional, whatever I need to do. Then I can go back and if he's aware of I can choose first. Do I need to address it with him? It may be I just forgive him and don't even tell him it was an issue because it was small and not worth addressing. That's probably most conflicts, frankly. Yeah. Right.

[42:56] like like most things I want to just let go and not correct and let people know because because most feelings aren't about Anthony, right? When I have someone that offends me, it's mostly about some childhood event that I had that I haven't felt, you know, and I can get into all the deep-seated realities of the hamburger step from my childhood if you want. That's a real story, by the way, the hamburger step. It's a nasty nasty story. So, it's not even about him, right? But if there is something I need to tell him about, I can come to him and say, "Hey, Anthony, when you did this, I felt this." And I wanted to make you aware and then let him maybe not even in the moment. He might then have a reaction and he needs to go off and like think through. And I thought about the story we talked about a couple times ago where um you were upset with me because you felt like I wasn't leaning into the relationship in the way you needed me to and I didn't know that. And then there was uh we were in a business together and you had to write a check into the business and you didn't tell me and so I didn't know that I had to write a check into the business. And then as soon as I found out I was like holy [ __ ] like I know. And as soon as as soon as I was like I didn't know and I'm happy to do that. The I mean your behavior you felt better immediately. That's a good example where I had a conflict and didn't tell any didn't tell him about it. So how was I going to resolve it?

[44:15] Right. So I I I think that happens frequently, frankly. Yeah. That that magic. Yeah. Magic. Yeah. Magic is gonna change it. So So yeah, we've talked a lot about how you handle someone who's coming at you with conflict, but how do you handle a situation or why don't we handle a situation that is conflict that we're ignoring? Well, but to your credit, when you came to me, even though you're upset, you you came to me in a way I it was clear to me you still cared, right? like it. So, you weren't an [ __ ] about it and it wasn't day one. You'd been thinking about it for a while, right? But, you know, you didn't you didn't come at me like it was my fault, right? No, it was my fault that I didn't I didn't bring it to you and and again, you but that takes a level of maturity to navigate the conflict that way knowing that both people because I had a part in it too, right? my my partner was I wasn't paying close enough attention to like like so if you can say like how could I have helped instead of like how were you wrong it's like how could I have helped and the answer was he felt I'm put words in your mouth now I think I think what you shared with me is you felt alone and that was not my intention at all but but it but he definitely definitely felt that way so I could have defended that and been like well it's your [ __ ] fault for not telling me I don't think that's how I reacted you said that I wasn't looking I wasn't looking at those numbers. Yeah, I wasn't paying enough attent I should have known. You took accountability for it.

[45:45] So, um No, that's a good example because it worked both ways. You know, the the conflict was in you could have easily created more conflict. Yeah. escalated the whole thing and then that it could have got to the point very easily where we killed the relationship if but cooler heads prevailed and where I I think that's you know when you're navigating conflict in a relationship it's so hard to to remember what you want the finish line to be right and and if it's like if the finish line of this relationship is that we're stronger better together and we're both aimed at that point and then we can link arms and get there instead of like my needs of my reptilian brain getting met which will absolutely hijack you and and destroy your best interests like I watch people do things against their best interest all the time and conflict can do that and so to the extent you can like enter the conversation about what is it that I want and what I want is to fix this and it it you know it's um great story about the way that cows and buffalo are different in a storm. Have you heard the story? I know it. Yeah. But tell the listeners. Yeah. So I you know, so when cows see a storm, they run away from it.

[47:05] And so they end up getting rained on the whole way because the storm chases them and they get rained on for, you know, 5x the amount of time. That's not a real number by the way, I'm making it up, but some massively different number than a buffalo who sees a storm and runs into the storm through the storm and gets way less storm because they've charged into the storm. And so I want to charge in the storm. I want to do it linked arms with the person I'm having conflict with with an end goal that's agreed to. And if the end goal is, look, we both want to get through this together, that's great. If one person's end goal is, I want you to be responsible. There's a game in psychology in transactional analysis analysis called now I got you you son of a [ __ ] where your brain takes over trying to blame the other person and and kind of litigate them into uh you know a conviction of your mind and that is a self-defeating game. You know you you don't just defeat the other person you defeat yourself too. And so, how do you start that conversation with, hey, my goal is for us to get through this together?

[48:08] Yeah. Yeah, man. The things we tell ourselves are so important, right? Those stories. You you said your reptilian brain, I think about it as your subconscious brain. There's so much of that that, you know, I know when when I have troubles with this, it's usually because I'm thinking about me, right? And I'm so focused on my problems or my needs or my, you know, you know, John or Anthony did this to me and and and you know, how dare they blah blah blah. But there's the language, right? So and so did this to me. And I'm not thinking about it from their perspective and that's hard a lot, right? Because we do go into like but yeah, and this is the area, right? Did so and so did this to me. What have you just turned yourself into? The victim. Yeah. And now you're already in the drama triangle. So even that langu now, by the way, if you've perceived me to do that to you, you've just made me the persecutor. So I can't be the one to draw you out of that easily. I'm using this as an example, but there's time. But there's it's a great one. But yes, there's there's times where we just we get so wrapped up in us and I find as soon as I think about it from their perspective, almost always everything evaporates. So you're going to love this. So on my So the person that's most important to me in my life, Anony's going to make fun of me here um in a second. So can you see this list here?

[49:31] So just a list of things. Yeah. These are all the things I notice that I love about Amber. And every time I think of something I love about Amber, I just add it to a note on my phone. I love the way you smile. I love that way you interrupt anything to dance for a second. I love I love I love I love all these things I love about her. And it helps me to have gratitude. And I look at it all the time like but especially if I'm ever like upset for a moment it's like hold on a second ground yourself because whatever story you're telling yourself like gratitude is the perfect antidote to almost all of this to get you to a good place. And so when I have that level of gratitude it's like okay the truth is Amber has my best interest at heart. Like no matter what I'm thinking in this moment she loves me. She think And by the way Jeff same thing Chris same thing. you guys. Same thing. Like I just I know I know I know I know I know. And so if I just start with that gratitude, it's like okay, all the rest of that story is a bunch of [ __ ] Now I can get to the finish line. What finish line do I want to get to with this person?

[50:34] Yeah, gratitude is we I mean powerful medicine. Yeah, it's it's as powerful as there is really. I won't make fun of that. I think that's sweet. I would never think to do that, but "When are you going to make a list about me?" Julie probably the same. So hopefully they don't listen. No. All right. Um it's it's a great tool though. It really I mean it's such a it's such a I mean it warms my heart when I read it and it's such a great thing and so um and she's seen the list now. Like she she hadn't seen it for years of of its making and then then I showed her one day and uh and it Yeah. So same thing. I I have um a playlist from our wedding that I listen to when I'm traveling away from Amber of like our wedding reception songs that are like love songs that were played during our wedding reception. And so I'll listen to that playlist while we're gone. I'll let her know that I'm listening to it and she feels loved because she feels connected in that moment. And so it's another form of gratitude. And so I think um you know on the last episode the text message that I sent to my friend Chris that we mentioned about just having gratitude for him and I got a you know I got a note back from him between the episodes uh you know thanking me for that and um gratitude and just have having one little bit one more moment in the day. I don't know. I think it's it's an easy antidote to avoiding conflict and then to entering into conflict with the right level of gratitude when you're when you're really truly feeling grateful, not faking it, right? Um is that was that Julie calling you out of the list?

[52:09] It was probably um it went right through do not So, but when you're really truly grateful, you really can't be angry. You can't have hate. You can't feel sad. It it it just makes those things like I I I think I think it balances them. I I want to I want to disagree a little bit because I think you can have two conflicting emotions that that a mature person can hold the I can both be grateful and angry. I can be both grateful and sad. Agreed. But in the moment you you yourself have said on this very podcast that you can only hold one thing in your mind at a time. I've said you can process one piece of information. So if that's my point I'm not saying you can't be grateful and mad or grateful and say like but if you are focusing on on gratitude that I agree with. Yes. and you are doing a gratitude exercise or writing about it in your journal or whatever you're doing and you are truly grateful, you will not be sad, mad, angry, depressed. I just it's you won't be in that moment. It doesn't mean you it doesn't mean you can't then go to the other side. And it'll help you process it, too. I do think it'll help you process it. And I think that's it's um I mean, you've used the journal that I've used. You you've I don't think you've used the same journal necessarily, but you've journaled. And so I think that journaling can be a really effective way to process through things. And time heals a lot. Like I think you know um Amber and I sometimes will talk about a regrettable incident occasionally. It doesn't happen very often in our relationship thankfully but when we do it's usually time passing when we do it the best. Not in the moment or the next day or but it's after after the emotional energy is gone. And I think for most relationships, friendships in particular, that's true because most things that I may have wanted to process with a friend, I recognize like, yeah, it's just not that important. Like I just the relationship is more important. It's I'm not avoiding it. I just it's just not something might have even been before the break about winning and I just made a note. You know, Julie said something to me that she was listening to some recently and she was talking about when you're in an argument that if you if you have to win that means the other person has to lose.

[54:37] Yeah. And that really that that that hit home with me, right? Like that's a different perspective. Like do you re how bad do you really want to win? Right. There's one thing about our ego and us wanting to win, but is it that important if it means the other person has to lose? Right. Well, this we go back to what's the goal? Yeah. What's the goal of the conversation? So, put a bow on this, gentlemen. Final thoughts. What what do you want what do you want people to take away from this episode? But this is our fifth and and I think we're going to come back to this. There'll probably be a part six, seven, eight that we've talked about, but as for now, this is the last of our five-part series on having an abundant social life. So, put a bow on this episode or this the series as as a whole. So, you know, I love analogies. So what I would say is as you're you know uh if you find yourself both in a position where you've got you're dealing with a crisis so and perhaps you're you're put in the the spot of the rescuer or the inverse where someone's coming at you with conflict. I would I would say call timeout. Go to the sideline. Huddle up.

[55:51] Take a breath. Get some Gatorade. Think about what you want to accomplish and in the time what kind of time frame you think you need to accomplish what you want to accomplish and then go back out. Don't try to, you know, steal the ball, make the shot, you know, take call timeout and and relax and think through it and assess the gravity, um the urgency, you know, is it a health thing that's got to be dealt with or is it something else? Uh that'd be my advice. And I wish it was that easy. It's not. You got to be very thoughtful of it. But um yeah, if I think back on the mistakes, how I handled conflict, it would be I jumped right in. What you're saying reminds me of that book you gave me that go to the balcony, look, build the bridge. What? Uh William Yuri Q R Y. We'll put that in the show notes. It's um getting to Yes. Yeah. So yeah, I would I would I would say that um a couple things on this. The fir the first one is I work hard to clean up my own side of the street first so that I'm always working on my side what I can control and cleaning up my side first.

[57:09] So if it's conflict crisis management relationship whatever I always want to work on my side make sure my side of the street is clean first. If that means forgiving first, apologizing first, whatever the case may be. I want to always clean up my side of the street first. don't always do it that way, but I do I would say that that's um a constant thought for me is how do I clean up my side of the street first? And then on the whole relationship series, I think that my encouragement to listeners is like this is one of the most important investments you'll make in terms of time, energy, um you know, like this is this is what why we do what we do as humans. It's we're in community and so invest the time and if you're natural at it, then you know, more power to you. And if you're not, then there's there are answers where you can kind of work through it and learn it. And it's it's it can be a learned thing. Fantastic. Well, thank you gentlemen. Listeners, if you've enjoyed this series, and well, let's say you've if you've made it through five episodes on this, you must have enjoyed it. In which case, uh, download the podcast, subscribe, tell your friends, tell your neighbors, like it. Yes. Five stars.

[58:11] Yeah. All all that good stuff, right? Go to the website talesofabundance.com. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, all over the pl all over the place as well. Uh have a fantastic day and uh thank you guys. It's been it's been a great conversation. Thanks Randy. Yep.