Nurturing the Bond: How to Maintain Friendships

Show notes

Nurturing the Bond: How to Maintain Friendships That Last

How do you maintain friendships once they've started? In part three of the abundant social life series, Randy Lorensen, Dr. John Oberg and Anthony Marino talk about tending friendship like a garden: trust, feedback, needs and joy.

They start with the foundations: who's in your inner circle, why the work comes before the feeling, the different kinds of trust, keeping confidences, and accepting people as they are.

Much of the episode is about feedback: why to get good at receiving it before giving it, the Johari window, why people resist feedback, taking a break before you respond, being specific, asking permission, and "feed forward." They also cover Matthew Kelly's seven levels of intimacy and why it's better to tell people what you need than make them guess.

They finish with joy: yearly trips with friends, planning time for fun, mixing friends and family, and finding groups on sites like Meetup.

How to Give Feedback to a Friend, the Johari Window and the Seven Levels of Intimacy

What you'll discover:

Why friendship is more like tending a garden
Trust, confidentiality and acceptance
How to receive feedback, and how to give it to a friend
The Johari window and Matthew Kelly's seven levels of intimacy
Telling people what you need instead of making them guess
Making time for joy with the people who matter

Timestamps

[00:00] Welcome: part three, nurturing the bond
[01:20] Friendship as a garden
[02:37] Showing up for a friend in a hard place
[03:56] Who's in your inner circle
[06:34] The foundations of friendship
[07:53] Checking in when something didn't land
[09:09] It's probably not about you
[11:48] The work comes before the feeling
[13:07] Trust
[14:25] Different kinds of trust
[17:02] Confidentiality
[19:40] Acceptance
[22:17] Seeing it from their side
[24:52] Receive feedback first
[26:10] The Johari window
[28:45] Why people don't take feedback
[31:22] Having the meaningful conversation
[32:40] Taking a break while receiving feedback
[33:59] Feedback from someone who cared
[37:56] Specific versus vague feedback
[39:13] The ratio of positive to negative feedback
[40:31] Asking permission
[41:50] Feed forward
[44:26] Going beyond the surface
[45:43] The seven levels of intimacy
[49:43] Confidences as tests
[52:18] Tell people what you need
[56:09] Needs at work versus with friends
[58:45] The LA call center story
[1:01:24] Communicating needs
[1:02:42] Joy: a yearly trip with friends
[1:05:18] Planning time for fun
[1:06:37] Mixing friends and family
[1:07:56] Meetup.com and finding groups
[1:10:30] Wrap-up

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About the hosts

This episode features Randy Lorensen, Dr. John Oberg and Anthony Marino (Anthony joined as a guest for this series, before becoming a co-host). Host bios are on the host pages linked below.

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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:01] the third part of our series on having an abundant social life. Uh today we're talking about nurturing the bond, the art of maintaining meaningful friendships. What this really is is in the last episode we talked about starting the friendships and getting them going. This is about taking it to the next level and how do we get better, deeper, more meaningful relationships in our life. next episode in our having an abundant social life. Today, we're going to talk about nurturing the bond and uh, you know, the art of maintaining meaningful friendships. There's I think we're getting into a little bit today about some of the work and the effort that that goes into friendship. And, you know, I like to think about this. Somebody said to me years ago and they compared they compared this to you know any relationship whether it's a friendship or whatever and they thought about it like a bank taking a bank and every time you do something good whether you have a you just have fun you build trust you show up on time you're making a deposit in the bank.

[01:16] Right. And and you just you need to make sure you have a positive balance in there and you keep you keep adding to it. Right. Other people talk about it's more like tending a garden, right? You got to plant the seeds and fertilize them and pull the weeds and do everything else. So, whichever analogy you like, we're going to get into some of that hard work, whether it's making deposits or or taking care of the garden. So, all right. I'm going to start you guys with a good question Should we be is this interview question, too? Are we going to be nervous again like the last time? I think you definitely should be nervous. Okay. It's not an interview question. However, I'm stealing this. I' I've heard other people ask this question. This isn't this isn't my question, but I think it's a fantastic question. And imagine you're let's say you're traveling through, John, you you said rural Kentucky earlier. You're in rural Kentucky and you get thrown in jail or in prison in Kentucky and you got to call one person to try and get you out. Who are you calling? First of all, why did you assume that hasn't happened to me? I didn't assume anything. Oh, why did you assume? I assumed I don't know.

[02:21] Okay. Who are you calling? Who's the who's the person that comes to mind? So listeners, I would I would encourage you to do the same thing. I mean, you you can insert Mexican prison. You could, you know, John, you could talk about your friend. You know, this this could apply to any situation, right? Your mother that you talked about last Yeah. I've got I mean, I I have a friend who I did this for. So, I had a friend who ended up in jail and I got a call um and and I had to go do that. And it would be the same person I'd call back. And the good news is I trust there's three people I trust to do that for me. Because I know they'd show up because they've showed up every single time. Anthony, any comments on this? Anything you want to add? Why would you call the people you would Well, number one, they're it would be Uh number two, they're they've got they're connected and could make stuff happen. So, depends on the state. I have a barcard in every state. I don't have a bar at all. No, I have I have two or three people that, you know, that are on the list.

[03:27] And you're talking some of that you're talking about right now. You're talking about they're high agency. I mean, part of it is they can be there, but also you're talking about people that can get done, right? And they can they can make things happen. So, all right. Um, well, let's go into Do you want stories about that again? Fire. I love I love stories. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is like so so I'm very early in a relationship with my wife. We're dating at the time. We're probably six weeks in. And I'm at a um an event that I'm hosting for work. It's me and it's two of my clients. And two of my clients is significant others. And then my wife, my my now wife, but girlfriend at the time, six weeks of dating, and I get a phone call from my sister twice in a row. And my sister does not call me twice in a row on a week night ever. And I've just uh we've just visited over the weekend. My wife and I were at one of her friends weddings in Dallas. It's about three hours from Austin, a car trip away. And so we haven't unpacked our bags. And my mom um who I talked about in an earlier episode, uh this is years later now, um had passed away. And but when I got the phone call, the paramedics were in her home trying to resuscitate her. And so I uh I excused myself from the work event.

[04:40] And um thankfully these were clients who knew me well enough that were incredibly, you know, gracious. Anybody would be, but they were they were incredibly gracious. And I walked out and said to my relatively new girlfriend like, "Hey, I don't mean to like be quick, but in I'm going to be on a plane in the next hour and uh and I don't want to like leave you high and drive. I got to run." And she said, "Yeah, I know. Here's the last two flights on American Airlines. Flight departs in 90 minutes. Our bags are already packed and I can have somebody ship my computer to me. So, um you just tell me. I've already put my credit card number in. Do I hit buy? I'm just one of the darkest periods of my entire life, she ended up um working from 6:00 a.m. local time until 2:00 p.m. local time on her job remotely after having someone overnight her computer to her that weekend or that that I guess got there Wednesday. And then um from 2:00 in the afternoon until about 8:00 local time, she organized every bit of administrative work that she could pick up that the family couldn't handle for everybody in the All of whom she was meeting for the very first time.

[05:48] Like amazing in a in a crisis. Um and a lot of other things. Yeah. So amazing in a crisis. Uh one of the most selfless things I've ever seen somebody do. and and and and she's not the only person in my life like that. I've got a couple of other friends who show up in that same way. And I think that's where you like, you know, it's like that that's the way that she showed up for me is the way I want to show up for my friends. Like that was I mean that's a it's a high bar to get over, but like I love that. So, I'm glad I said yes to the story. There we go. Well, the Anony's laughing at me. No, no, wait, hold on. No, I just um very joyous is a very joyous story. Okay. I thought maybe made me made me feel great. let's talk about those foundations, right? Because that's a little that's, you know, a marriage is a friendship certainly is a big part of it, right? I mean, everybody hopes they marry their best friend, but wh what are these foundations? So, let's let's identify what these things are. We talked about, you know, the person you would call. We we got this story. What are the things that you think are the foundations of that that friendship, right? Because we want to build this on a strong It's exactly the things we talked about earlier. I mean, it's responsibility and accountability so you can count on them, right? And then it's um, you know, the willingness to be vulnerable and their willingness to hold that in trust and then radical acceptance and the willingness to see someone in their best light. And I can't tell you the number of fights I haven't been in with Amber because she's been willing to give me the grace of knowing that I didn't mean mean the words that I said. I meant something better, but I was crappy at letting them come out of my mouth and and like letting me try again. And I've, you know, I give her the benefit of the doubt in the same way. It's like I just I know that she's always trying to do what's in my best interest or our best interest as a relationship. And because I know that if I don't receive it well, I might just check in and say, "Hey, that didn't land the way I think maybe you wanted it to. Can we, you know, you know?"

[08:00] So, you're you're talking about the packaging, right? I mean, I I'm definitely guilty of this. I say things and then the packaging isn't always doesn't come across the way I intended it to come across, right? So, how do you Yeah, this probably happens more with me talking to Amber than her talking to me candidly. But, you know, the part where I used to get into a lot of trouble younger that I probably get into less trouble now, not no trouble, just less trouble is uh is processing my feelings in the moment out loud verbally with somebody. I just haven't found that to be super effective for relationships for me personally. And so, u what I have to do is kind of like process them and then bring them back. And that's and that's not about like not being myself. That's about like as a human when you have a feeling it's not somebody else's job to do that work of processing the feeling for you in my opinion, my professional opinion. And so I while while it can be helpful to process with somebody, it's more helpful when it's a thoughtful process, not just um kind of so walk a listener through that. What what what works for you? If you did something that made me angry, me telling you about it right in that moment, trying to fix it while I'm emotional, I'm not going to give you that feedback in a way that's actually helpful. And the chances are it being about you are pretty low. Like, it's probably not about you.

[09:18] And so, letting me go back and figure that out for a minute, in almost every case, I don't even bring it up as feedback to that person because it has nothing to do with them to begin with. And it's probably a molehill that I've turned into a mountain. Anthony, you got some wisdom here? That was the story. Well, come back [clears throat] to the story. I'm teasing. Anony's more interesting anyway. In in terms of, you know, the thing that you asked. For me, it's a it's a it's a feeling um where where I um I I have no doubt about what's going to be happening next based on I know the person's going to be there on time. I know it's going to be an interesting or enjoyable time. Um but I also think from a foundational perspective, you know, you're heading in the right direction. Again, you haven't reached the destination. You you're you're now a nurturing, right? We're in the nurturing phase when you're you're doing something with or for someone and it's effortless.

[10:27] It's not a strain. It feels it feels good and and most of the time you're you're doing more for them than they're doing for you, but it just feels effortless and it feels enriching and rewarding. And that's how that's how I know I'm moving in the right direction. I'll bet you both parties feel that same way too. Like they I bet both parties feel effortless. And they probably both at times feel like I'm doing more than they are because we we do have tendency to kind of see our own side of it more clearly. Well, yes. That's that's hopefully true. And this is what you're going to find Right. You're gonna find out if this is real or God, I'm gonna age myself. Is it Memorex? You know, it's Sorry guys. Um I remember that unfortunately. That's a cassette tape. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, a cassette tape is something that we used to listen [laughter] to before before CDs, just after eight tracks.

[11:28] Right. In any event, but it is but it is a feeling that that you have and and it's it's it's also the the there there there never is enough. You want to continue, right? You don't want it to end. Um but but the work comes before the like like psychologists know for a fact the work comes before the feeling. Like there's a like you work and then the feeling shows up, But then that that's like a um it's a virtuous Well, it's a it's a a flywheel. It's a virtuous cycle. Yeah. Yeah. It's a flywheel. So you're I mean I again going back you're making deposits, right? So you're making the deposits that then Well, and I think that there was a time in my life where I was always looking at the deposit I was making so that I could figure out what deposit I was going to get in return. And that was a that was a transaction, a series of transactions, not relationship. So um in that case, I don't think I was being good in relational. I was I was objectifying people. It was always quidd proquo. I give you so that I can have. I give you so that I can have. I give you so that I can have.

[12:42] So both of you mentioned trust. How does how do you create trust or or maybe the better question is how does somebody create trust with you would be a better question. Anthony, you've for you clearly you've mentioned it over not just this episode but previous. Just being on time is a big one for you. Yeah. I mean, boy, [clears throat] it's such a what seems like a difficult question to answer, but it's it's actually easy. You know when you see it, you know, trust when you see it. it's there. It's it's it is black and white. There are there are signals. No, the human condition is we'll deny and and give the second and third and fourth chance to someone because that's who we are. That's what that's the human condition. But you know it when you see it. Um and that's again we're going to end up talking about you know how do you exit a relationship at some point? But for me that's kind of the non-starter. A mistake is one thing. Breaking a trust is something entirely different. Now, it can be accidental and you can forgive you can forgive it, but uh generally speaking, if it presents itself a second time, it's pretty hard to come back from And you know, tr trust is a couple different things like you know, it's like there's the trust of holding a confidence where you tell somebody's story or secret when you shouldn't. And that's one type of breaking trust.

[14:17] There's another part of trust which is about someone's competency and how you make them feel when you're around them. And so I joke with people all the time like you guys both know me really well but neither one of you trust me to do brain surgery because you know I don't have that skill set. I'm not a I'm not a brain surgeon. I you know right but if but there are places where we have really high trust right and so I think trust is I don't mean situational in a in a different way but like you would trust me to probably help you if you went to the hospital and needed to find a great brain surgeon you know that I've got a healthcare network and that I'm going to be very committed to helping you find the right person for that and you might trust me implicitly for that help but you would not want me being the one with the drill and the scalpel but I also trust I also trust you that you wouldn't try to be the brain surgeon 100% Yeah. Right. I mean, I think that's that's part of it, too. That's a piece of it, but there's another piece of it, too, that we we I don't want to skate over, which is how people feel when they're around you. Like, I've had feedback from both of you and from other people in my life that there are times that I talk to people in a way that isn't doesn't feel good for people. And and there's a number of ways that I can show up that way that's not awesome or helpful. And I'm aware of that and there and I and I work to improve that. But that's, you know, that's a part of the way that I communicate. And so, I've got to be thoughtful about that.

[15:35] Yeah, I mean I I think you and I have that in common at times, right? I mean, it's just I mean, both of us are sometimes like get to the point and, you know, and and super blunt, right? Impatient might be another word. And and and well, yeah, that's that's probably true for me. There's probably a much longer list that I have to navigate myself through more than you do. But like if I want someone to feel good when I'm around, then I need to make the environment about them, not about me. It's not about how easy the environment can be for me. It's about how well I can show up for them. And and so for me, I try to be mindful and thoughtful. And it it sounds like it takes a lot of work, but for me, it doesn't anymore. Like when I started practicing this empathy, it was very high energy. But after practicing for a couple weeks, it became much easier. And that's just am I just paying attention to what's good for the other person? Like am I actually giving a about their experience, right? And what and what that turned into was it's just not that important for me to point out all the things I used to point Just not that important.

[16:41] And so I don't. So before we put the bow on trust, what about just, you know, again, we talked about reliability, being on time, are they reliable? Are they doing what they say? What about confidentiality? Let's let's dig into that a little bit, right? Because I think we've probably all had examples in our lives where people have broken trust because Oh, yeah. They couldn't keep their mouth shut or they, you know, probably in a lot of cases non-intentional. But let's let's dig into confidentiality a little bit. You want to start there? It's [clears throat] a killer for me. Yeah, it really is. To me, it's it's incumbent on you to be explicit that look, I don't want you to share this with anybody. I I don't want you to share it with your wife, your dad. I this is between you and I, okay? And only you and I. Um, and I think of the five that I have. and never once did anything that we didn't want the other to know someone else to know about either either direction. Um, you know, we we're part of we're part of a group and um everything we we talk about in our group is confidential and my wife is still mad at me.

[17:58] Mine too. That I won't tell her what we talk about. Um so again it's you know it when you see it right you know when someone breaks a confidence you know it there's no doubt about it. Um and to me it's kind of it's it's I can't think of a time when something of significance happened that I that someone came back from it. Does your wife say to you well if you can't tell me who can you tell or or why you should be able to tell me Are you talking about me? Yeah. You know. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. Can we cut Ryan? Can we cut that out of this? [laughter] pretty well does confidentiality. Let's go into acceptance. Hold on. There's a flip side to to what we talked about about trust. And it's not about the confidentiality, it's about the feeling part. And maybe it's maybe if we're going to acceptance, maybe this is it. But I've got a buddy who one of my close one who he will always find the best way to see everyone and tell everyone how he sees it and it feels awesome because you always know he's looking at you in your best light.

[19:06] So maybe actually I'm not about trust and that's that's the seeing you in your best light part. So sorry I'm skipping It's all right. No, it's a great point. Right. I think a lot of that's I I think of that as grace, right? Do you are do you give people grace? Is is the way I I tend to think of that. So, and I think that goes with I think I I don't know that that's been easy for the three the three of us in this room. I don't know that acceptance is something that came supernatural to any of the three of us. Did not for me. Yeah. So, do you know what that is? Let's acceptance. Let's rip the band-aid off that one since this is a tough [clears throat] accepting that it is falling apart. Well, I think accepting people for who they are, see kind of what John's having having having great seeing them in their best light is different, but you know, parallel path. Yeah, it comes I mean it comes with maturity, you know. It really does. I think it's you're not really conscious of it when you're young. You're very Um, you're not smooth. the you're you're more apt to at least I was more apt to go from thought to voice without doing a lot of thinking in between and um and then you're not really listening. You're not really listening to what's being said. you're not really digesting it in its entirety and giving the person uh or the group a lot of times um the attention that they deserve and the opportunity to fully explain the position and so forth. So, and you're ready to move on too. You you know you're at a faster pace the younger you are. you you know okay next you know it's funny what a big disadvantage that puts somebody at too through I had I had a conversation this week with somebody about acceptance and they just they wanted the world to be a way that it wasn't and when you're navigating the way the world the way that it's not you're not navigating the road as it is and that's a great way to drive off the road right it and so like finally we just had the part of the conversation where I said hey look I hear that's the way you want soand so to see the world that's not the way so and so sees the they're not going to see the world that way. And so we can spend as much time as you want hoping for that. And I can tell you right now, it's not going to happen.

[21:33] So we can either work on the things you can control, or you can keep trying to change somebody else, which you're never going to be able to do. Right? Yeah, for me this comes down to motivations, belief systems, and it takes effort and work to really think about like what is that person and I guess that's empathy in a way, but but what because a lot of times I think we view sis men especially probably more than women but women do it too is we view here's the outcome I would want and here's what I would want and here's what I value and here's what I believe and if Well, that's people, Randy. That's that's not women less than men, I think. But that's what we do, right? And for me, if I can stop and think, what does blank fill in the blank? What, you know, what does John want or what does Anthony want? And what do they what's important to them? What do they believe? What do they value? Or better yet, what have they told me they believe? Because sometimes we ask ourselves, what does Randy want? And we then project what we want Randy to want onto Randy. That is not helpful. So, so just just that one little piece of language change is what has Randy told me he wants?

[22:44] Yeah. I I think it's a saying you I think I heard this from you actually, John, is uh you know, am I giving somebody the gift they want or the gift or am I giving the gift I want or the gift they want? So, okay. And the packaging matters, right? We talked about packaging like I tell the story all the time and this is not a true story. It's a fictional story, but if my wife and daughter both wanted the same gift for Christmas and if it was true that my wife didn't want it gift wrapped and my daughter did want it gift wrapped and I gave them both the same gift but I gave them the opposite one, both would be unhappy because one of them wanted the gift wrapped and one of them would didn't want me to waste paper and and so you can the packaging can screw up the gift. Definitely. So, so talked about that in a in a relationship though with friends. I mean, get put that into a more some something somebody can use. Yeah. You know, it's like if um I'm trying to think about like a real example where this has actually happened, but like um you know, if if somebody really values going to concerts and uh you're like, "Hey, I know you love going to concerts, so I bought you tickets to the baseball game because that's where we're going."

[24:00] like that like right like that's maybe not awesome, right? Got it. All right. Let's talk about Let's talk about feedback. Right. So, this is a this is a little bit of a tricky one, I think. Giving feedback, receiving feedback. Um, you know, this takes a lot of trust. We we've been, you know, we've been talking about trust. If we have trust, right, we're able I mean, I think that's a foundation we need. But let's talk about giving feedback. How do you Okay. So, I'm going to I'm going to ask if we can pivot here for half a second because I'm we So, for the listeners, we have these show notes we create uh that we go through and this section I put giving feedback and then receiving feedback. And I just recognize I shouldn't have done that. I should have put receiving feedback first and then giving feedback because my guidance to myself first and then everybody else would be that until you're good at receiving feedback as evidenced by your friends telling you that you're good at receiving feedback, you shouldn't be giving feedback.

[25:10] Like I I think that's like like that's step one is like receiving feedback should be step one because if you're not receiving feedback in a way that your friends are like, "Wow, that was a great way to receive feedback." Then you probably shouldn't be giving feedback. Okay. So, let's talk let's talk about receiving feedback. Yeah. Right. What what does that what does that look like or well why why is that important? Let's go let's go a little more into the why. I mean, you just kind of hit on it, but let's go deeper there. Yeah. I mean, I don't think you can help people have you you can't give people what they're asking for in a relationship unless you're able to receive what they're sharing with you. And so, there's two types of feedback. Like there's feedback I could give you in a relationship, Randy, where I'm talking about what I need from you in a relationship. And there's feedback I can give you based on just things that I think may be in your best interest where you can't see yourself. And so, um, I'm going to geek out on academic stuff for a second, but there's two psychologists that created something called the Jiari window. And it was like this little 2 by two box. We'll put a thing on the website for it. And the Jiari window is like there's things about me that we both know. There's things about me that only I know and that I don't share with you. And those are hidden. There's things you see about me that I can't see myself. Those are my blind spots. And then there's the things that neither one of us know about me that it's just the unknown. Unknown, right? And so where I have a blind spot, if you're a good friend, you can help me with those blind spots if I'm open to it. And in a perfect world, there's a huge level of things that we both know about me. And then the the things that I know about myself that I hide from you and my blind spots, we shrink those boxes and push them into the box where we both know those about me. That's how you have great connected relationship, right? And so if I'm not willing to receive feedback from you, then then I that blind spot box is big. And so the way that played out in my life was that, you know, I was um doing a 360 with a counselor where they were evaluating me and I had them talk to a bunch of people that worked with me for me, peers, you know, superiors, subordinates.

[27:11] And and one of the things that came out of it was that um I was so positive in polyana that I would say things that just everyone knew to be untrue. I was hoping they might be true because I was trying to be the raw raw leader. And I'd leave the room and they would laugh at me behind my back. And I was the butt of the joke and didn't know it and thought I was being a great leader versus being a trusted leader who was, you know, really kind of seeing things as they were and helping people navigate. Instead, I was losing their confidence. And I was like, son of a Like I really cared about you and was trying to lead you. And one of the people in the 360 had the had the courtesy and the courage to call me and say, "Hey, look, I wanted you to know what I told your counselor and here's why I told it to them." And we've maintained a great friendship since then. Like I have a huge amount of respect for this person who really went on a limb. And the only benefit of going that limb was for my growth. Like there was no upside to them telling me that. Like none. All they had was risk. And I'll be forever grateful they came to me and gave me that feedback. And so I think if you if you're not willing to see receive that feedback, I would be the same guy I was, you know, 20 years ago, still doing the same stuff and being just as ineffective as I was at that point and, you know, to my own So I know both of you well enough to know both of you are willing to take A lot of people aren't, right? So I mean, probably including the three of us at different times in our lives, right? Um I it's not always easy. So what let's talk about why that is. Why why don't people take feedback whether it was us or what what either what we've seen in ourselves or what we've seen in somebody else to get to that point.

[28:54] Well in [clears throat] the context of what we're talking about in terms of nurturing a relationship. It's [clears throat] you know receiving feedback from someone that you really are just getting to know. um they they have they maybe they in your mind haven't earned the right or they don't have the agency to be giving this feedback and maybe their their feedback is garbage, right? It's it's just garbage feedback. It's it's feedback about your political or your your uh your you know some sort of today's health uh fad or whatever the case might be. So you're not buying it. you know they don't where then later on maybe you find out this person really had you know an education in that in that area and suddenly your mind might change. So it's contextual around who it is when it is and which stage you're at. Whoever your five are if they're going to give you feedback you're listening.

[29:59] You're not you're not even questioning it. In fact you're listening and then you're executing against that feedback. just you're just doing it right and it's a completely different environment. These are the most trusted people in your life. Whatever they say, I'm taking that feedback. Yeah. Okay. And I'm moving on. Someone I just met or I'm in I'm at the second coffee and they're giving me feedback that I shouldn't have cream in my coffee because, you know, cream is, you know, pasteurized and it's going to kill me. Blah blah, you know, I'm going to take it differently. So, it's all contextual. But I I I don't agree that mo most people can't take feedback that I I would agree that most people don't like feedback even from a you know one of the five. We don't No one likes to hear you know something that's off-putting to them. Um, but again, as you mature, um, you it's it's easier to take it and it's easier to contextualize it and then turn it around to giving feedback on the feedback you just got because you what you want from the feedback is you want to circle it around and make it a circular discussion. You know, tell me more about that. Tell me why you feel that way. How do you think I should adjust to this feedback? Over what time period do you think I could do that? Um, and have a meaningful discussion about it. So, um, and it isn't just turn around and now start giving them feedback. It's give them feedback on your feedback to keep this cycle going. I I think that's really good, right?

[31:37] Because what a lot of us do is we get defensive. Somebody says it and you're like, well, but or well, you do it too, right? Or the what what about isms, all that different stuff. So, so not I think that I think there's lots of gold in So, all that's about like you know the defensiveness is about an emotional reaction in almost every part, right? So, at some point you've kind of left the cerebral cortex. You've had it into your lyic system and now you have now now you're probably reacting to something that isn't the feedback, right? And and so that's the and look I think my experience is even when people get good at receiving feedback, it's still hard and and imperfect. And so um so one of the things that I find for people who are trying to like be better at receiving feedback is learn about paraphrasing and active listening where when someone gives feedback it's like okay let me tell you what I think I heard you say right because it's like I really deeply want like for I don't want to understand the next step or the third step or the fourth step. I just want to make sure I like I think I just heard you say this about the feedback. Do I understand you correctly? And then sometimes that might be a place to take a break early on in receiving feedback where it's like, okay, I just need to sit with that.

[32:46] You know, I often tell the story where I got feedback professionally from a my boss's boss and I was, you know, 30-ish years old and I had a remarkably successful career, meteoric rise. And the feedback he gave me was that if you don't change the way that you're relating to people right now, you will not be promoted again. Not just in our company, but your career is at a standstill. You'll never go further than this. And I could not I mean I had 150 people that worked for me that would have taken a bullet for me that day in my mind. And I think that there was some truth to that. I had done a lot of great things. But as I really sat with that for the next six months, I remember calling him back and saying, "Hey, that thing you told me like I can see it now." But it took me six months to be able to see it. No, the fact that I mean you could look at it that way, but the fact that you were willing to sit and think about I mean it obviously impacted you and you took it seriously like you you didn't like the answer or the the feedback, but you were also self-aware enough that you started at least it made you aware.

[33:57] Well, I I knew he truly was having the conversation because he cared about me. Because again, there was no he was trying to help me develop my career to where I told him I wanted it to go. And there was no upside to him for upsetting me. Right. Like the the the upside for him was he committed to developing me and I committed to being developed by him and it was you know at that point we've been working together for seven years and you know this was a very high trust Um and uh professionally he really was trying to help, you know. So I I think that you know Yeah. I think that I think the harder one is sometimes we get good feedback from people that we don't respect or we don't Right. And you know I think of early in my business career my region manager was in and he was watching an interview and I was I'd always been really good at this part of the business but I was struggling for some reason. I didn't know why. And this smartass kid was really inappropriate and gave feedback And you know, my initial reaction was he, you know, I'm blah blah blah. And kind of stuck my chest my chest out.

[35:10] And Marty, my region manager, made a comment. and he goes, "You know," he goes, "That kid, he's a he's he's an and he's, you know, he's a but he may not be wrong." I was like, "Oh, right." And so, like you said, I sat with that and I realized, "Oh, the kid probably isn't wrong." So, packaging does matter. Well, you know, he had terrible packaging. That's what I mean, though. But the fact is, Marty made me think about Marty's packaging. Marty Marty took the gift. Yeah. Marty repackaged it for you. Yeah. And made it palatable. Yeah. And and I and I didn't have to sit with it for six months, I guess. But it was uh You're smarter than I am. Well, clearly. I [laughter] mean, listeners have already figured that out, I know. I mean, I know. I know. I can compensate. All right. So, let's go back to giving feedback. All right. Let's let's let's go around. So, what is like we want to be honest and we want to package it. We want to be kind. Let's go back to honest for a second. Hold on. I was going through with a spiritual director one time and and she said to me, "John, just because you honestly have a feeling or an opinion doesn't give you a blank check to share I was like, "Oh, damn." So, so people don't sometimes they mistake what honesty is. And so I think honest in this particular case I think we have to slice that a little thinner and say like we know that we're not projecting like we've done enough work on the inside to know like hey this feedback is really about me trying to help Randy not about me fixing Randy for my benefit.

[36:43] We're we're assuming a high level of self-awareness here but continue. Well but but I think that's I mean maybe maybe people shouldn't be given feedback until they can receive feedback. I know that's not really the way the world works. I know we're not it's a high bar. I'm just I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just commenting most people don't have this level of self-awareness. Hopefully this podcast can can make people aware of it. And when it comes to abundance, you know, we should be if we're going to build abundance, we should know we don't have to give feedback for our own benefit. We can give feedback for the benefit of the other person and really put them at the center of those comments. And if we're not 100% sure that like that that person is at the center of those comments, like maybe it's just not worth it. I think that's fantastic advice. So we are assuming that that our listener is going to be self-aware and they are going to give honest feedback for the benefit of the person I without without projection which is the hard part because some a lot of times we don't know we're projecting. Yeah, it's a lot right there.

[37:48] Look, when when we we teach this when I work with clients and we talk about feedback, we talk about specific feedback versus characterized feedback or specific versus unspecific. And so specific would be talking about a very specific set of actions and then sharing the impact of those actions as feedback versus characterizing it in a way that's not actually useful to moving somebody forward. And so like, hey Randy, when Hey John, when you wrote the notes today and you put giving feedback before receiving feedback, that may actually give people the wrong idea as we go through the podcast. And so, so the feedback would be, should we change? And it's like, okay, God, like that's specific, actionable feedback versus, hey, John, you weren't very thoughtful when you put the notes together today. It's like, how do I fix So, I think I think honest feedback. I I think maybe I would say whenever possible give specific feedback even when you're giving positive feedback because hey you know you're awesome isn't as great as hey man when you called me the other day and said d that was really meaningful for me and I got to tell you it changed the course of my day and I'm really grateful and I appreciate that. That's so much more powerful than hey Randy you're awesome I like that you just put a spin on that it could be on positive feedback because I think we've been approaching this more negative feedback or fixing problems.

[39:11] statistic time, healthy relationships have 20 times more positive feedback than negative feedback. Unhealthy relationships have five times more positive feedback than negative feedback. I'll say it again. unhealthy relationships have or or relationships in conflict is probably better said have five times more positive feedback than negative feedback when they're not going When I learned those stats and learned that most of the people I was giving feedback, you know, five to one negative, I realized I might have been the a-hole. And by might have been, I mean was. Yeah. I think [clears throat] I think it's important to before giving feedback is to get to give the feedback. just blurting out feedback for the sake of blur telling someone even if it's in their best um you know may or may not get through but if you have the dialogue of hey would you mind if I gave you some feedback on your back swing you know if you don't if you don't want if you don't like because I I see something would you like it and it's a that's a re that's a relevant thing right in athletics you know some some people just leave me alone um but the Same thing in in a marriage or in a business relationship or personal relationship. You might can I give you some feedback on that? And if they say sure, then they've opened the door and you off you go. And again, if you apply the rules of you're doing it for that person in their best interest, you have a chance of it being Yeah. If you just blur it out, your your chances of having it received go down by I don't know, you probably have a statistic on it, John, because you have a statistic on every damn thing.

[40:54] of all statistics are made up on the right? So, uh, but anyway, I think that's the most important piece of it. Yeah, I think that I think that's wise. And then just being calm about it, not being urgent. you know, you you better you better stop eating that. You know, it's just doesn't the more urgency and you know, anxiety you put through and you know, directing feedback to someone, I think, the less they're going to accept it. Specificity is really the key. And you know what? Here's what I'd offer to the listener. There's a great way to practice this. Go give only positive feedback for a long time. And if you give positive feedback a hundred or a thousand times, it's a great way to learn how to give feedback because I'm like, "Hey Randy, can I give you some You know, the other day when you did something positive like and I go through the positive feedback, then you're not going to have a negative reaction the next time I say, "Hey, Randy, can I give you some feedback?" Yeah, that's great. I heard an executive my wife worked with, she always called it feed forward. So it was like, "Hey, for the next time," which I thought was really a cool way of looking at it. Feed forward. like here's what here for next time. But that way there was like less pressure on like hey you made a mistake. It was more like hey here's how to make it better which I really appreciated that particular Well it plays to the idea that you want to play to somebody's strength anyway.

[42:13] You're really not you know especially in business you know someone is has a weakness. You want to minimize that weakness, of course, but you're not going to turn that weakness into a strength 99 times out of 100. So, it doesn't do you much good anyway to give that kind of feedback on what they're doing well and leveraging up you know, it's like a good stock. You know, it's it's going good. Keep it going. You know, um you know, feed your horses as they say. So, I I think that's a great point, right? I I know I've been guilty of this. I've watched other people in a in a business setting especially, they take somebody that doesn't have a certain skill set and instead of putting that person in a position to succeed, they're trying to fix them to do this thing they're not good at. Right. I mean, we've all natural. We've done it. We made that mistake. Every one of us has made that with ourselves trying to get good at something we're not good at. Right. Oh, I gota, you know, I'm really not a great, you know, with with spreadsheets. So, I'm going to spend the next six months teaching myself these Excel formulas and blah blah blah. And it it doesn't change. Six months later, I just more frustrated than I was six months ago. Whereas, I could have spent six months doing some, you know, relationship marketing and double the Well, and I love the kind of motivational speaker type stuff and and people like you can do anything. But the reality is I also want to be honest about like I'm not seven feet tall and I don't play basketball well and so me being a professional center of the Los Angeles Lakers and the starting lineup is never going to happen no matter how bad I hope it wish it won it whatever and so that just so I think I think you have to balance optimism with uh acceptance that's really really important all right there I I got a bunch of really good nuggets from this and let's let's go to break on that when we come uh we're going to go into just going deeper and getting beyond the surface level in in connections. So, we'll discuss that when we get back from the All right, listeners, welcome back. We are going to go a little deeper on developing these friendships and yeah, pun intended. I see what you did There we go.

[44:28] I saw what you did beyond beyond the surface level. So, By the way, that's an example of positive feedback. I just want to point out I just did that naturally. Didn't even mean to, but no one gave me feedback and good feedback, so I'm going to give it to myself. Amazing. Amazing. Can John take your own do this? Yeah. There we go. Hey, look at that. All right. So, let's talk about the difference. I think everybody wants more of these people in the five, right? The people that we can really count on. And one of the things that I think separates them are these are people that you feel really talking about your with, right? like being vulnerable, talking about your issues, talking, you know, asking for help that I think a lot of times the acquaintances were not going to have those conversations. So, what let's let's talk about the vulnerability. Why is that important? How does it how does that help create the deep bonds? think that you know it to be vulnerable, you've got to be self-aware.

[45:37] Right. And then I think um I think that's when you're that's when you're in it, you know, and you remember in the first episode, hey there, look at that. Really in it. Uh when the first episode we talked about the seven layers, right, of intimacy as Kelly talked about them in the book, the seven layers levels of intimacy and that romantic relationships, but it really plays to to personal friendships as well where you have like the, you know, you've got up the cliche and then facts and then opinions, right? Then hopes and goals and dreams. Then you get into like feelings. Then you get into like fears, faults, and failures. Like to be able to talk to somebody about your fears, faults, and failures. Like Anthony, I don't know about you or Anthony about you, but like I don't just like come out and talk to like my friends who aren't in my five about my fears, faults, and failures. Like that's my like I don't talk about it often. When I do, it's a pretty serious conversation that I'm looking for some something. And and I and so that that's a level that's reserved for like And uh I don't think it has to be more frequently than that, but it's not a it's not a like I don't think that's a like, hi, my name is John.

[46:50] My biggest weakness is when I failed at You know, I feel like this is a place Anony's got some of this Anthony wisdom here. Well, you know, it to John's point, it this doesn't this isn't happening early in the nurturing process at a deep level, but it is there there is time where you're um can show your modesty about something that you don't know. You know, um you can gee, I I really don't understand that subject. Tell me, tell me more about that or tell me more about why you feel educate me on that. So, it's starting to like, you know, it's like a hardboiled egg. You crack it. Now, you just start torturously peeling off the the shell that little nick at a time. It never comes off like you want it. So, that's where you start testing um the I was gonna make a joke. Have you tried vinegar in the water? Yes, I have.

[47:52] I was joking. I If it works, I was just trying to be a smartass. Yeah. He's just just [laughter] that another John dad joke that just doesn't goes over like a lead balloon. I [laughter] find it hysterical. But um this is where you start to get the feel of things with a with a person, you know, how do they react to your vulnerability or your modesty is what I would call it. Um and do they open up to you? How do they open up to you? Is it a give and take? And it doesn't mean that I tell you something and then you immediately tell me something. somewhere down the road, you're starting to pick up these pieces and you're getting, you know, by by sharing your your weaknesses, you're getting closer, right? And and you used the term earlier um uh at the break, what what are your needs? You're actually asking for help. You're back to the feedback. You're asking for the feedback. You're asking for the input uh because you're you're at you're you're exposed. So, no, you don't tell them about, you know, your the your deepest darkest fears, but you start to have these these conversations.

[49:02] And when when they start to become and meaningful, the relationship's going to again, now we're nurturing. We're in we're in that place where we're heading in the right direction, and who knows where it's going to end up. Uh, but it's a it's moved a little bit forward at this point. So yeah, you you mentioned trust in there and I think that's we've talked a lot about trust, but this only happens when that trust is there and you have to trust them. They got and it just it it adds to that level of trust, right? The confidentiality, all of that, all that foundation has to be there. And then when you do this, I think it really deepens because that it's almost like it's even if it's not meant as a test, it acts as a test. that that person gets to prove that they are trustworthy and they can keep it confidential and they can be relied upon. Yeah. Remember at least not everything is that serious. You know this this is just an acquaintance. This is a a a burgeoning friendship. could again use you know it's it's we're talking about the curriculum at the elementary school and what are our views on it and it's what it's not the end of the world or we're talking about you know the condition of the golf course and what we could do if we joined the golf association if we were on the board we would do these things so it's not everything is you know all personal and it can be just stuff you know just just the relationship is well I there's a lesson about this. One of my kids shared with one of our neighbors one of my wife's preferences that quickly could have been uh mistaken for a political preference, right, to one of our neighbors. and and it was so flippantly done that I had to gently and appropriately correct my child that like hey that's not we don't share that information in that way because it's that that was told to you in confidence in in a situation at home where you don't like we don't talk about that with our neighbors in that way because it could be misconstrued and lead to disharmony in our neighbor and so so it was like teaching him how to build that trust even in the most kind of inane of topics right but like you don't just like you you know, share those private wasn't like I was mad, but it was like I But I recognized we didn't like there was there was a learning moment there, My kids hate learning moments.

[51:42] learning moments. How [clears throat] Somebody else took deep thoughts already. I'd have taken that one. There we go. So, Anthony, you hit on the needs. Let's Let's talk. I I don't think we're done with the with the going deeper, but but since you hit on the needs, let's let's go there quickly. Needs are deeper. That's the deepest level when you get to like the like your deepest legitimate needs. So, but but we talked about giving feedback and I I look at needs almost as the flip side of that coin, right? Is that being able to communicate with people what do you need in the relationship is a is a big part of it and part of going deeper, right? Is tell people instead of making them guess. I mean, John, tell me a story or just give me your guys. I'm I'm joking. Give me your I don't know that I've ever come out to someone's like like here like now for my wife I've said like hey here's what I need from you. Um in moments like you know kids are you know um putting me to the test and I'm like hey here's what I need for you to support me. But with my friends I don't recall ever being like here's what I need. You know it's funny. I usually start the conversation with my five uh closer friends by saying, "Hey man, I don't need anything. I just wanted to talk, you know, [clears throat] and because mo a lots you do need something and you don't want to I always want to make sure that if I'm g if I do need something, uh it's very infrequently." So, I always start a conver usually start a conversation with, "Hey, don't worry. I don't need anything. I'm good. I just wanted to check in with you to see if you needed anything." And that gets the ball Oh, you know what though? I do. The way it shows up for me, I was thinking through this like the way it shows up for me is like, hey, I could use a sounding board and and and asking someone to be a sounding board as a need generally feels good to people because it's like, oh, cool. like so I think that you know that's a way that I would encourage people to really lean in and ask for people to be a sounding board in areas where they're going to be helpful where you actually want them to be a sounding board. You can't be disingenuous about it but like I I'm thinking of like my close circles like when I call them it's like hey I need I'm thinking through something I'd like I'd like to get your take on it and I think that I certainly appreciate it because I really want their take and almost every time I can't think of a time I haven't had feedback that was really thoughtful. Um, I I think that's great. And I I was I was thinking about something really similar is sometimes like I have one friend in particular that I'm the only person he can call to vent. Right. And it used to be by the way when he would call and he would start venting, I would start trying to solve problems.

[54:22] Oh yeah. Right. Because it's it seemed to me that's what he was asked. He's like, "Well, blah blah blah blah." And I'm like, "Well, do this." And he'd be like, "I'm just trying to vent." So, you know, I've kind of trained him over the years to like, look, when you just are calling to vent, can you just lead with that and I'll sit there and listen however long you need me to listen. I'll just sit there and listen. You know what's ironic about that? What I called you the other day? Remember that call? I called you. I had a quick question and you needed to vent. Oh, okay. And the topic doesn't matter because it's unimportant, but like it was like that was a moment and you know, you've given me feedback that I can be a better listener for you sometimes. Yeah. like you've said that to me and I think it's great that you were able to tell me like, "Hey John, sometimes I need you to show up differently as a better listener," which I'm generally a pretty good listener. So to get that feedback from a close friend, I'm like, "Shit, that I better really pay attention." And so I called you this day because I had a quick question and I think about 45 minutes in I was like you're like, "Hey, why'd you call?" I like it [laughter] doesn't matter. Like I called for I called for a one minute thing. I think I know I think you're going to talk about Yeah. But it's like I didn't and and by the way that wasn't off-putting for me. Like that was an opportunity for me. Like I really took that as a like Randy asked me to be a better listener. I got this great opportunity and so it was a cool for me it was a cool moment because it was a chance for me to lean into the feedback you'd given me directly with you. I'm Yeah. I'm And I'm just thinking I'm better at this in a business setting. Like sometimes people could be somebody that that an employee or something. It's like look here's what I need from you.

[55:48] Yeah. And you know, I think about it, it's just really powerful, right? Because it creates clarity and and people know here's how I can be Yeah. I want to draw a bright line though. I just want to draw a bright line for the listener though. A need from like an accountability perspective in terms of I'm your boss, here's the job. That is really different than a relationship need that that at the seventh layer of intimacy would not be appropriate for an employee and a boss to talk about. So just so we're using the same word. So I just want to make sure it's really crystal clear for the listener like we're talking about different things, Yeah. Yeah. But I do think there's opportunity here that I think I think I've gotten better at and I think I probably still suck at because I could do it a lot more that if you tell people what you need from them. You're a lot more likely to get it right if you just ask for it and because they probably don't know. Yeah. That's separate apart from vulnerability if you're talking about a business need for but yes. But but it could be look it could be with your friend. It could be with your wife. It could be with Could be you telling me you need me to be a better listener. I mean that that's Well, it [clears throat] it's trickier in the reverse. Meaning most people don't say, "Hey, I need this." Right? So when you when you're so forget about your your need, I would suggest to anybody if you have an explicit need, go after it. Be be explicit about it and ask for help, okay? to get that need.

[57:11] And you use whatever words you want. The the trick is listening to what people are saying to you and interpreting what they're saying as a need. They're not saying, "Hey, I need you to do this for me." They're talking to you. They're telling you a story. There's a where you're on some subject and hidden under there is is a need. And by by if you're really trying to nurture a relationship or you you've advanced the relationship, pay you got to pay attention and and dig a little bit and ask probing questions and give a right? That's what people want. You know, I want you to give a about me and I'm going to give a about you. You know, I I teach everybody that works for me that I am here to help you achieve your goals. You're not it's not about my goals. It's about your goals. I will do whatever I have to do to help you get to where you're going. Along the way, you're going to have a role to play here, and they're going to be expectations and so forth. But ultimately, if you want to be, you know, you're in the construction business right now and you want to be a let's figure it out. We'll figure out how to get you the money, the hours, the time to become a nurse. No problem. But while you're here, here's what we need from you on on the job. Conversely, I'm listening. I hear you want to be a nurse. I'm going to do things. I'm going to do what I have to do to help you achieve that end. So, you know, we I told I've told the story a thousand times about the LA call center where we were losing these terrific people eight months, nine months after we trained them and they were great in the call center. They were awesome and we we found out that they were leaving because they were going to nursing school and their hours changed, their curriculum changed, their residency changed. And as being great businessmen, we wouldn't let them change their hours.

[59:17] We'd tell them, "No, you got to be here 7 to 4 every day." Or we were losing great people because school hours changed or the husband changed his job and no longer can take the kid to the bus stop in the morning. We wouldn't change the hours. So we started just letting people sket their own schedules. You know what it did to response times and call times and all that? Nothing. not a damn thing. It was like it was ridiculous. So, we ended up graduating 60 or 70 nurses from nursing school. Single moms now could stick around and not turn over. We took turnover down from God only knows what it was. It was over 100% turnover in that call center in LA down into the 30s and 40s, which is ridiculously low for a call center. Just by saying, "Forget it. The schedule doesn't matter. You guys set your own schedule. just give us a month notice and we'll make it work. The the wisdom there though wasn't what you said. It was that you listened and figured out the problem. That's what I'm saying. You listen you listened to their But for for 10 years I didn't pay a bit of attention to anybody. I didn't it was happening in front of my face for 10 years and it finally like okay now I get it. I mean an epiphany that's ch that changed my life actually. But that's a huge part of acceptance, right? Like we go back like accepting the situation for what it is versus hoping it was something else.

[1:00:40] And and that's the difference between trying to solve your problem and trying to solve their problem, Like and if if the listener was to take away nothing from this episode other than that, it's like give a about their problem, right? Give a about or or not their problem. Just just care [clears throat] about them. Like just care about, right? like you guys have heard me say at the end of every Grateful Dead concert that I've been to, the the millions of them, it feels like they always end the show by saying be kind. Just a soft be kind. And you never hear about riots at shows like this. Just just be kind. That was our fifth value in our last company. all right. I I think that wisdom is great for the needs comm you know communicating the needs. I think that I think that wraps that up nicely. I do want to circle back real quickly. One one thought I had when we were talking about being vulnerable and we were talking about it with the five. I think I think we probably should should make it really clear. You don't want to be the person that wants to be super vulnerable and dump all your problems on people that you don't have that deep relationship. Right. It's and mix it around with the five too, right? Like you want people to carry that load and uh Yeah. You don't like don't be the whiner. That's not that's not the the person that's always complaining and whining and in high maintenance is not the way to build friendships over time, right? You kind of have to earn.

[1:02:04] No, I I my goal is to be a net giver. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's that you know what that puts a perfect bow on that too. Let's move let's move to more fun. Let's move to fun and joy. So um I this is you know the best part of friendships right is having fun playing joy you know that that's that's where you know it need it needs to be a good experience for people so how do you have fun with your friends how do you inject it's a tough one for I if I'm with my friends I don't care what we're doing like I could literally have fun with my friends doing almost anything and you'll laugh at this because it's in your world. Um my my my tight group, we go on a trip once a year generally in the mountains and um whatever we do during the day, we play poker at night for like a$10 or $20 buy in, which in your world is like not even playing for money. And so sometimes what I'll do in these games is I'll um we play um uh seven card stud. That's that's the cards down the river. All that Yeah. Okay. That's how much I know. And I'll leave my hand down. and I won't look at it and I'll keep betting. And I have a friend who got a full house and I didn't look the whole time and I had four of a kind. And so when I flipped my hand over, we were videotaping the whole thing because we knew he had a full house and we and it was like it was madness. And we still laugh about that today. Like a no look, you know, four of a kind and like and it was just it's the stupidest Okay. So I think I think that's great.

[1:03:40] Right. You're right. If if you're with the right people, it almost doesn't matter what you're doing. Yeah. hanging around and talking. And I want to prove to you how little I know about poker. Doesn't take a lot of talent if you got four of a kind. [laughter] I mean, I didn't know what I had. It's an easy, but the fact that the fact that I was betting and didn't know what I had does not make me the brightest player on the Yeah. Let's be Let's be honest. It's 10 or $20 is not it's not going to have not gonna have a measurable impact on your life, John. Yeah. Well, I had a measure look like that. It was funny as hell. [laughter] Anthony, what I mean, what what do you do to add add fun or joy? Well, you know, [clears throat] I I in terms of u what to do it, you know, again, it depends on where you are in in your in your life cycle. So the earlier earlier on as u when you're single or you're not necessarily locked up with kids and so forth, you're trying to find group things where there you're increasing your odds of developing tighter relationships with people. So in your case it was sports, you know, music is a great thing. um you know, the health club, where whatever those things are that give you want to make sure you're doing something you like to do.

[1:04:58] Um not necessarily that you're good at, you know, um but you want to be in an environment where you're increasing your odds, right? Playing the odds as you get on now, you now you're into the family phases and so forth. You've [clears throat] got to pick and choose carefully because you don't have the the open runway to, you know, to take this exit and that exit. You got four hours on a Saturday. You got to make a decision on, you know, what that's going to be and who it's going to be with. So, it's got to be very intentional and you got to be very careful that you don't waste that opportunity or do something that, you know, for someone else just for the sake of doing something that's not going to bring you joy and stop you from doing doing something later on down the road and just bagging it and saying, "Now the hell with it, I'll just stay here and watch the game." So, I think you just got to be careful and conscious about the choices that you make depending on the stage of life you're at. For me now it's, you know, it's it's my choices and my friends are, you know, mostly family and revolve around some travel and things like that. When you're younger, it's a, you know, get out in the park and play.

[1:06:16] And park can be defined as a club, a you know, a dance, whatever the case might be. So, but but in either case, you're mixing. See, because I love that because you're you're also we talk about the five Fs, right? And the balance and and I think, you know, last episode you brought up how, you know, if you spend more time with friends, you might have to spend less time with family, but if you can mix fun and friends or family and fun at Yeah. So, fitness, friends, family, fun, finance, those are the five Fs. I mean, you said fitness. If you're playing the right thing, you could be mixing fun, fitness, and friends or family. By the way, if you're playing pickle ball on a free court, it could be financially viable, too. Like there's all you can we can get them all. Yeah. So, I I think that's great. Yeah. Just look, it's Yeah. Put yourself in positions to succeed, whatever it is. Travel or and and try new things, right? Like so pickle ball became a thing where people were starting to play pickle ball and so you try that out with a group and either you like it or you don't or you I think And it and it changes throughout life.

[1:07:21] That's right. You know, and I I think for me, I mean, it was almost exclusively sports when I was younger, right? I just that that competition and doing it in in those connections. I work at home and there's days where I just I mean, the only time I leave my office is to go outside and walk around and get some sunshine or putts around in the yard for a few minutes here and there. So, I really look forward like Anthony and I have a lunch every month where I look forward to that like that chance to interact in person and just Meetup is still a cool thing, right? Like meetup.com where you can go find different reasons to meet up and people have all kinds of reasons they meet up and that's a really great way to meet up on whatever subject you think you might Well, you know, I think somewhere we put that recreational um inventory on one of our shows. We can drop that link here too on the recreational index [snorts] about like what hobbies you know someone might enjoy. Just go through and check them off like love it, don't love it, love it, don't love it, whatever. And then, you know, find the things you like. I like to keep a list of things on my bucket list of things I want to do one day. And so I like travel, you know, I'll play pickle ball with Charlie if he'll play like my youngest. He's a table tennis guru and if he's not worried about screwing up his swing, he'll play, you know, pickle ball with me. So yeah. So just figure it out. Again, if it's if it's getting together and having lunch with somebody and you can have great interesting conversation, that's fine. Um, but it could also be something I'd love to go to comedy shows.

[1:08:48] Almost doesn't matter who I go to a comedy show with, right? Because you're not really talking, but it's still a shared experience. Not that different than going to a movie or a concert or I met a guy once who got a hamburger always. He always had like I don't remember what it was. Lettuce, tomato, mustard, cheese, bun, and it was the exact same order. Every hamburger place he could find within a 100 miles so he could test them all out with exactly the same things on his hamburger. And that was his deal. Okay. He did that with people or he did it by himself? No, he did it with people. Like whoever he could get to go with him. All right. But yeah, whatever it is. Whatever Whatever your thing is. Another guy I know takes friends to barbecue. Like I mean Yeah. So, pick your own pick your own adventure, I think, is the moral of the story. Yeah. All right. Uh, before we put a bow on this, anything you guys want to add to I think this is an important part of the the work that you have to do. I mean, you know, nurturing and being conscious and intentional is really important. Take the time to do it. And in the hard parts, to me, what that means is calling and being the one to set things up like that. That to me has been the hard part. And I think my friends would say that's where I would like they'd say, "Hey, let's go do this." And when someone says, "Let's go do Insert the Blank," I usually am like, "Okay." And I have it on the calendar, like within a couple hours, you know?

[1:10:06] Um, yeah. I mean, so, so I think be the instigator. Like once you have someone that you're kind of in flight and you're like, be the instigator in a good way. Good way. Um, yeah. I think that's what I would say. Just, just be the one who plans it. Yeah. It's easy to rationalize. No. Yeah. Yeah. I'm too busy. Say yes. Figure out put yourself in a box. Say yes and then figure out what you have to to make it happen. Yeah. Yeah. It's you know that I mean we've talked about this. We've talked about this on previous not in this series but in previous episodes that you know nobody on their deathbed is ever go when they talk about their what they regret. The regrets are never like, "I took that vacation I shouldn't have taken or I went to that extra concert or I really wish I'd kept more money in my pocket and not spend it on something Yeah. Like those are those are never on people's list of regrets is is the things they said yes to that they went and did the experiences and the life and especi especially if it's with good Yeah, agreed. All right. Well listeners uh we will see you on the next episode of this friendship series uh where we are going to talk about friendships through time and navigating navigating it as life goes on and distance and drifting apart and just kind of life's journey in there. Uh we will see you next time. But in the meantime, uh please subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast, download, tell your friends, uh you know, give us feedback. We talked about feedback. We would love your feedback, good, bad, or indifferent. And uh you can get a bunch of free tools at our website, talesofabundance.com. Thank you for listening and have a great