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Episode 55 · 31 December 2025 · 49 min

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Best of Tales: Giants in the Bible, a CIA Case Officer and Where It All Began

Giants in the Bible, a former CIA case officer and the very first episode: a year in, with thousands more people listening, Randy Lorensen and Dr. John Oberg pull together a "Best Of" for anyone who missed these conversations the first time.

🔍 First, we go back to Episode 1, where it all began, for a short clip on why we started the show and the value of bringing very different points of view to the table.

📖 Then Randy revisits his conversation with former Catholic priest Kristian Jaloway: how big the giants in the Bible were, who the Nephilim were, the books that didn't make the canon (from Maccabees to the Book of Enoch), and where psychedelics and meditation fit with faith.

🕵️‍♂️ Finally, Randy and John replay their conversation with former CIA case officer Josh Graham, from 9/11 and being recruited to what spy movies get right, keeping secrets from people you love, and a mission to find out whether a country had weapons of mass destruction.

Whether you're new to Tales of Abundance or a longtime listener, this "Best Of" episode is a snapshot of what makes the show thought-provoking. If a clip grabs you, the full episodes are linked below.

The Nephilim, the Book of Enoch, and Life as a CIA Case Officer

What you'll discover:

  • Why we started Tales of Abundance, in a clip from Episode 1
  • How tall the giants in the Bible were, and the Nephilim as offspring of angels and humans
  • How the biblical canon was chosen, and the Book of Enoch and other books left out
  • Psychedelics, meditation and what it means to listen to God
  • What a CIA case officer actually does, and how Josh Graham was recruited after 9/11
  • Marriage, faith and secrecy, and a mission hunting for weapons of mass destruction

Timestamps

  • [00:00] Welcome to the Best of Tales: a year in, and thousands more listeners
  • [00:45] From Episode 1: why we started the show, and the value of disagreeing well
  • [02:52] Randy introduces the Kristian Jaloway conversation
  • [04:39] How big were the giants in the Bible? House of David and Goliath
  • [07:16] The Nephilim: offspring of angels and humans?
  • [08:57] Magic and sorcery in the Bible
  • [12:10] The canon: how the books of the Bible were chosen
  • [15:18] Gnosticism, secret knowledge and modern movies
  • [16:58] The Books of Maccabees, and the books Martin Luther struggled with
  • [18:37] Mary Magdalene, The Da Vinci Code and reincarnation
  • [19:29] Eastern cycles vs. Western linear history
  • [20:12] The Book of Enoch
  • [22:44] Tradition with a capital T
  • [24:23] Psychedelics, meditation and talking to God
  • [28:27] Randy introduces the Josh Graham conversation
  • [29:04] Josh Graham: from aspiring history teacher to Israel and China
  • [31:45] September 11 in New York, and anthrax in his building
  • [34:09] Recruited into the intelligence world
  • [36:34] What a CIA operations officer actually does
  • [38:02] What spy movies and shows get right
  • [40:29] Working as a lone wolf: safety protocols and what can kill you
  • [41:14] Friendships with the people you recruit, and the mission
  • [42:54] Marriage, faith and a life partitioned by secrecy
  • [44:33] Protecting his cover and his family
  • [45:23] A mission to find out whether a country had weapons of mass destruction
  • [48:53] Outro

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About this episode's guests

Kristian Jaloway is a former Catholic priest who joined the show for a candid conversation about faith, miracles, giants and psychedelics (Ep 39). Josh Graham is a former CIA case officer who became a high school history teacher and coach; his first conversation with the show is Ep 32. Randy Lorensen and Dr. John Oberg host this episode.

Listen to the full conversations:

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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:08] Abundance. We have a special episode today. Uh we have been going just over a year, but we're doing a best of episode and we have thousands of more people listening to us now than we did a year ago. So I'm sure some of these episodes are things that you've missed. Uh so take these, listen to them. Uh I think you're really going to enjoy them. And then if you like them, go back and listen to the whole episode or again send them to your friends, tell people. And really where we're going to start, we're going to go back to episode one and just give you a short clip of where we started and how far we've come since that very first inaugural episode. — Yeah, I really appreciate that and and super excited to bring really diverse points of view. I think you and I agree on lots of things, maybe even most things, but we also have a lot of perspectives where we take radically different approaches. Sometimes we get to the same end point. Sometimes we have very different end points. But I love the discourse and that we can, you know, radically disagree about something. But I still really respect your opinion even especially when it's different than — Yeah. And I I think that's so missing in the world today, right? I mean, there's there's so many of our problems are because people can't talk about things anymore unless they agree on everything.

[01:19] I I think this is going to vary from person to person, right? But going back to it's a community and whether somebody is early in their career and they're you know where I think both you and I started we were chasing you know that's a lot of people early they want success financially and career-wise. Uh there will be things there for that but other people might be at the end of their career and they're trying to figure out how to give back and we will certainly have content that will fit into that. How do you give back? How do you be a good steward? And and whether it's a charity or it's coaching or mentoring or maybe it's just giving back to your family. Uh I don't think it's important what people's goals are, but I think we'll give people whether it's the framework, the motivation, maybe it's just a story that inspires them that will help them hit those goals and bring abundance to the world in whatever way they like. Doesn't matter if what it is, but everybody's got their own journey and and that's part of what makes the world great is we can embrace and hopefully just do a little bit to help all those people on their journey — and they have hopefully exactly what they need in the moment they need it.

[02:34] The great thing about a podcast is you can pick up the episodes whenever and so hopefully they'll find just the thing they need at just the right moment to be able to feel better, gain some hope, have a framework, what whatever it is. I mean, who knows? But yeah, not getting help on what our goals for somebody are because that doesn't help anybody. — Hey listeners, for this section of our best of, I want to revisit our conversation with Kristian Jaloway. And uh you know, Kristian, boy, I have so much respect for Kristian. A lot of it is his open mind and his willing to look at things and think outside the box and ask the what if questions and really truly go into the hard questions. Um and then just the wisdom that he brings. And I think um you know I I really enjoyed this this conversation John because these were the questions that I don't know I just I have a weird mind. I find you know I want to know how big a giant is. I want to know how Noah fed all those animals on the ark you know and etc etc. So I know you have different conversations with Kristian. Yours are more from how to be a good Catholic.

[03:38] Mine are more you know le let's let's break down this crazy book the Bible and tell me more about it. Right. — You know, we're all learning, right? Like one of Kristian's real skills is he's incredibly devout, but he's willing to meet people right where they are, which you know how much I appreciate that kind of generally. And I think to be able to kind of encourage that curiosity in you. And look, at the end of the day, I never thought about how big giants were until you asked the question. But what a fascinating answer. — Yeah. Yeah. So listeners, you're going to get a whole bunch of that. So listen, um, you know, I mean, we talk about some books that are not in the Lutheran Bible. The Catholic Bible has different books. I had no idea. And, uh, in and various topics there. So, I I really think you're going to enjoy this. And just really I think the big takeaway still is that Kristian's open-mindedness of somebody of faith to explore these things from an intellectually honest place I think is something that we all can learn from and and strive to be better at. — Great discourse, Randy. Great discourse. — All right, enjoy. I've been talking about giants. So, let me tell you how this came up. I first thing I remember as a kid, like I grew up in the Lutheran church, not Catholic like you all. and David and Goliath. And I pictured a giant that was, you know, I just thought it was a seven or 8 foot tall person fighting a 5-ft tall David or whatever.

[05:01] And didn't think that much about it. Well, Amazon recently had a TV show called D or House of David, — Okay. And I started watching it. It very good, by the way. I would recommend it to anybody. And all of a sudden there's giants and there's sorcery around these giants and how they're created and a bunch of things we can get into. But the first thing they're big aren't seven or eight foot tall. They're gigantic. So how big were the giants? Let's just start there. I I actually read through this recently uh cuz I watched it as well and I went back to the Old Testament and I believe it said I should have brought the data but that they were nine feet tall. Now again back to John's point from earlier does 9 ft um in the Bible mean the same thing as what we that that's obviously an interpretation. You know the the the Old Testament has been translated from whatever is written in originally Hebrew or some other language to Greek to Latin to English to you know so what was lost in that translation I I don't know. Um, I'm not a biblical scholar in that sense, but I so my guess is they were not as big as Amazon is depicting them to be. Um, but still, you know, you say 5t tall. I mean, you go to uh look at these old churches of people buried in in churches around Europe, they're like four feet — You know, and and the ancient Romans, I mean, I don't know, but I mean, you go to Pompei, I people were not very tall.

[06:29] So somebody was 9 ft tall might be twice as tall as you — 9 foot n by the way according to the number of cubits in the Bible potentially maybe — so so science by the way has found giant bones around the world. — Right. Like there's there's multiple places where they've dug up giant bones. I think in Asia in particular, right? Um so maybe it's a real thing. But also — well gi giantism I think is that what it's called? There's a medical condition where um people get really big. Usually, I think they get very weak, too. But there's another one I saw recently where they do um they have all the right proportions, all the same, you know, relative strength. — I think Andre the Giant had something like that if I'm not mistaken. But he was seven, seven and a half feet tall. — I thought he was 8 feet tall. I'm going to check that one, too. — Um okay. Well, even deeper than how tall and how big are these giants and do they exist? They were the they were the offspring of a angel and a human woman in this show. Is that also is that consistent with the Bible? I assume it — Uh no, I don't I don't think the Bible makes that clear because I know there's debate about that. Um and there are what we would call apocryphal books. So that were not included in the canon, the official Bible. Um that talk about that more. I I don't think in the Bible from my reading that it said exactly their so you know that I mean going back to my philosophical or just biological I I don't um I don't think you would be able to have an offspring from an angel and a — I mean not unless they're the same species, right? That's the whole — Right. The whole point is they're different species.

[08:14] — Yeah. Uh — well, but if humans are made in God's image and angels are in God's image, and then I I don't know. I'm I'm I'm reaching here. — Biologically, you have to have two two, you know, a male and female of the same species to procreate, right? Um so even even the virgin birth, like it was clearly said that it was God was the God was the father. So that was a miraculous intervention, not a not the angel Gabriel coming to impregnate Mary. — Couple more just fact checks as we go. So, uh, Andre the Giant somewhere between 6'11 and 7'4. Tallest human on record right now. Robert Persing Wadlow, born 1918, was 8' 11 in tall. — Wow. Almost 9 ft. Yeah, that is. Yeah, that's tall. All right. — So, Samuel is a key character in here, — and he is uh he's doing a lot of magic, — curses, and magic. — So, let's talk about that. Tell me about that. Yeah. So, magic is um definitely real. I think the you know again I think well my perspective would be and I think this is consistent with the Christian perspective is that magic is either all magic is um not magic is from the evil side like there there isn't white magic as far as I can as far as I can see. There's either miraculous things where you are praying or asking for intervention and help from the divine which is um not what I would call magic and then there's magic where it is um you know actual um intervention from evil angels basically right the devil kind of stuff I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of that out there I mean there is Satanism as a religion there's a lot of selling your soul to make you know financial gain and those kinds of things out there. So, um you know, my boys is funny when they when they look at any magic show, whether it's whatever it is, they're like, "It's not magic, it's science, right?" Because because magic, that's the other kind of magic. So, slight of hand and all those kinds of quote magic, it's not really truly magic. It's it's we know it's fake and it's not a because I've heard Christian ma magicians talk about this and they're like, I I perform my trade my trade craft and people know that I'm faking them and it's fun, illusions, right? Like that's that would be illusions that people are having.

[10:43] — People starting to get freaked out when they're like, "This is actual magic, right?" And and that's part of the fun, too. But but there is a fine line there, I think. And then the the red line is like, "Okay, this is actual magic." Um, which I do think exists. I mean, I frankly also think ghosts exist as far as like souls of people who have died. Now, do they do all the things in movies? I mean, that's maybe a whole another question. So I think Sam Samuel in the show House of David I think it's so to your point it's not magic like Merlin or what we think of Harry Potter or whatever it's he's channeling God is what is that — I I think I think his I mean the story from the Bible's perspective is he was following God and he was receiving grace from God and then he gradually got off the right track and um probably was using more sorcer and evil magic and and and kind of selling his soul to stay in power. Um I I think that's where where the story goes and I think they do a pretty good job of portraying that in the in there as well. And so his son was trying to again this is according to to the show but you know was trying to keep him on the track of God and and being faithful to God.

[11:56] — Wait, are you talking about Samuel or — Samuel. Samuel. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. — Okay. All right. Um let's talk about books that so the Bible has the books that were picked right by I believe a group of cardinals if I'm not mistaken. — Well it's the it was yeah the the early Christians right the descend the apostles and their and their and their successors. So yeah interestingly so we call that the canon. So the canon is the official book of um or collection of books that make up the today's Bible. And the Jews actually had lots of writings. There were there were writings circulating. There were letters back and forth. There were the official books of the Torah. Well, again, they weren't official before Christians. So, when Christ came, he died, he rose, he he left, he he, you know, ascended into heaven. He's gone. And the apostles get together and say, "Hey, we've got to figure out which which of all these writings," because they had many writings, too. There were apostles were writing different churches and different people, and it was all kind of a big collection. and they're like, "What of this is actually um what of this do we actually believe? What's consistent with Jesus's life? Because we need to put some order in this." And so they sit down and say, "What is the going to go in here and what's not?" And once they did that and closed what we call the New Testament, now that collection of books, then the Jews said, the Jewish um rabbis said, "We need to do the same thing because people are asking us now, well, what what's your official collection?"

[13:24] then they went and did the same thing. And so there's a small discrepancy between what the Christians say are the official books of the Old Testament and what the Jews do today. Um but that that that was based on, you know, what's consistent with what we know and experience because they were firsthand witnesses uh many of them or um uh or knew the apostles themselves. They were either, you know, knew Jesus or knew the apostles who did know him. And um and then what's consistent theologically? So what's consistent with our experience, what's consistent theologically and what do all the Christians around that the world at that point agree with. So it was a very in that sense kind of democratic process and then there were other books that were written that either weren't consistent theologically weren't wellknown and not everybody agreed with and so they said no those are those are not in of course they prayed too and I think that's the that's the key point in really discerning okay what is what is the Holy Spirit inspiring us to um in this process to put in here — boy this gets so messy I just I think about this in today's world [clears throat] Right. And maybe this is me projecting 2025 on onto these people, but you know, in today, you can't get people to agree on almost anything, right? and somehow politics and — horse trading and I and I I get it's supposed to be the word of God, but man, it just makes me wonder what concessions were made or what deals or what, you know, have you have you read any of these books or did you study them when you were in seminary or — I mean, we read the whole Bible and studied all the books of the Bible and then but I'm talking the ones that — Yeah. The apocryphal they're called. So, I read some of them or I'd look them up.

[15:06] I mean the book of Enoch is one uh that is that is pretty common and others and and they come and go. There's a whole kind of uh group of writings called new age that are more based on what we call gnosticism. So the so the idea that um there was something kind of missing and there's a secret thing you need to know and if you swallow the right pill you know you'll you'll get the secret knowledge that will free you and save you. you know, a lot of the modern movies, um, Star Wars and, um, uh, other movies like that that the, um, Matrix and things are kind of based on that. You can see it underline their philosophy in those movies. — What book, what book was that in? Um, so the the I'd have to go through and look at but if you looked at apocryphal books or gnostic books, — the Gnostic books were the gospel of Philip, the gospel of Judas and there were some others called uh apocryphal gospels, the gospel of Thomas, gospel of Mary and the infancy gospel of James or the pro provangel of James — AI. So — yeah, it is it is interesting that that long, you know, we say again that long ago, but you said it earlier like we we kind of treat them like they didn't know anything and we know everything, but but they it's been consistent over 2,000 years. Like those books have not I mean there was one challenge with Martin Luther that was the biggest challenge but for 1500 years there were zero challenges to those books and those decisions. Um, and then even the challenges that Martin Luther brought out have been largely understood and overcome since then, right? Not everybody agrees with it obviously, but — so were there books that Martin Luther said should be in the Bible that Protestants have?

[16:47] — No, he took out a couple of books. He took out the books of Makabe most not and you could look that up too to be sure but um they were the latest they were the later books um and there was also there were also a couple of books and so there's a small difference between the um Protestant version of the Bible today and the Catholic version of the Bible today. Um — hold on hold on hold on I did not know this. So Book of Mabe I've never heard of this. The Catholic — The Catholic Bible has a book called — Yep. first Mcabe and second Mcabe which was um leading up to the Romans there were um family a family called the Mcabes who resisted um the the the Romans and I I believe I'd have to go back and study a little bit more here. — but but it but it was very it was very clear also that that was um — I might be crossing my wires a little bit. Hakabe was also leading very much up to the story of Jesus. And so the Jew that's definitely not in the Jewish Old Testament. Um the John, if you're factchecking, let me know. But the the New Testament one that Martin Luther took out was I believe the letter of — Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were the ones he struggled with.

[18:07] — Okay. Yeah. Yeah. — Well, Revelation's in there for sure. So he left some but I had I had no idea Catholics and Protestants had a different Bible. Yeah, it's it's it's not it's not very different, but it is different. And obviously, there's different translations, but um again, I don't know anything about this other than what I all this is secondhand, so just just take but I hear some a lot of the books that were considered but not added. Some of them believe in reincarnation is one of the things I know if the I forget what the thing is, but the the Da Vinci Code and one of those books in that series talks a lot about Mary Magdalene and her being much more a central part in Jesus's life. And you know, even I think one of the books even says they were married. — Gospel of Mary Magdalene was one of the books that came up. — Yeah. So, right, like — I don't know. I mean, what do we know about that? I mean, what what's the chances of I mean, how many of these books talked about reincarnation? That's probably the one that's most interesting to me.

[19:11] — Yeah. The that again, the Christian perspective is reincarnation doesn't happen. It's it's um you know there there's a in general there's a the philos eastern philosophy is much more circular and so this idea of of birth, death, you know, regeneration, reincarnation is is very eastern. is very is very common. Um it's very much western. This idea of you know progressivism happens in the west. I mean this idea that history is linear and there's a direction and there's a beginning point and there's an end point and we're we're making progress is very much a western kind of idea. And so you know that's where the Christian idea of of we're going somewhere and we're making progress is is based on that. I think um what did you find something there, John? — No, I was just trying to keep up with you guys. There's so much [laughter] I'm a I'm a noob when it comes to like this type of this type of theology. So — So all right, you mentioned the book of Enoch, and that's one of the things I had in my notes I wanted to ask about the book of Enoch, and I did a little bit of research on this because again, I didn't know much. But first, is it agreed that it was written by Moses's great-grandfather? Is that agreed? I think it identifies him as as um yeah, Enoch is the great-grandfather of Moses who was a descendant obviously of Noah, but um it was it wasn't considered divinely inspired by the early church.

[20:39] Um for some of those reasons I gave earlier, right? It was written centuries after the biblical Enoch lived apparently. Um not everybody agreed it was, you know, part of the story. And um and then I think the biggest thing that now people identify is again the angels mating with humans didn't seem — Ah we're back to we're back to angels mating with with humans and giants. — Right. Right. Um so you know and you said what it it is very fascinating to think like what is the political uh what were the political conversations going on at the time and all of those things. I I don't think that I don't think that these decisions were being influenced by politics on the on the global scale as far as the Romans go and all that. Like this was for the Romans, this was like they didn't have this on their radar at all. I mean the the Christians had zero influence on any level politically at this point. They weren't even they probably weren't even being persecuted yet. um they it was very much a just part of the the the Jewish it was a Jewish sect according to the Romans for for many many years in the beginning. Um but obviously people always have politics, you know, and I'm sure between the apostles there's politics. I think the chosen does a great job of showing the humanity of them and and all of that. So anyways, we're getting maybe off the topic, but but the fact that it was left out was it just wasn't it wasn't um seen as an integral part of the faith. Um which by the way is a really important question too when it comes to difference between Christian or Catholics and and Protestants is the Bible wasn't given to us just dropped from heaven. It it had a messy process of people writing things and was it inspired, was it not inspired and and how did how did they decide and all that stuff like so first we had the church then the church gave us the Bible essentially right which means there was already an interpretation happening there was an understanding interpretation explanation happening and then they took that which we call tradition with a large T there's the little traditions like you know you use holy water or this or that that um but but the big tradition is what is consistent with the life of Jesus, what has consistently been passed down over the generations and a lot of these things just aren't consistent with that and so they were they were left out. Is is that possible? Like some some of them could be possible but again that doesn't mean that it's it wasn't seen as um consistent enough to keep it in. And and I should reiterate that just human error doesn't impact God's will or God or religion in my mind, right? Like it's okay if humans made mistakes. And — that's a good point.

[23:27] — Different opinions, right? Like I just I — you you have more faith than a lot of Catholics and saying that frankly like I think I think a lot of people struggle with that in the church too. I'm just saying. Right. — If people want like if you want proof there's a God like how about a 2,000-year-old institution run the way we run the Catholic Church. — Yeah. I mean that's yeah I mean there's there's a I mean — there's there's a famous uh story of um who was it uh Napoleon who told one of the cardinals I'm going to destroy the Catholic Church and the cardinals just laughed at him and said you know we cardinals have been trying to do it for 2 years haven't succeeded so I don't think you're going to be able to either. So, one of the things when I was doing research, and again, I don't know much about the book of Enoch, but the little bit I read about it was that a lot of the things and you and I have talked about before, I've talked about sometimes like how does psychedelics work with or doesn't work with the Bible and meditation and some of the other things. And in the research, part of the reason that was the one I picked is a lot of what I read it aligned very like there's definitely talk of psychedelics and meditation and that being a way to talk to God and have those — Did you get did you get speaking in tongues on there?

[24:38] — That's it was on the list. I skipped over it because I figured we had enough — Yeah, but speaking we could. — By the way, I know people speak in — I saw when I saw it the first time I was I didn't know what to think. — I just didn't. — Yeah. pretty it's pretty weird especially for a westerner I think in general it's it's uh there's been a movement over the last I don't know what 30 50 years called the charismatic movement that that kind of was reborn so this whole trust in the Holy Spirit but back back to your question what what were you um — this might be taking us off — like again the book of Enoch is it talks about psychedelics and talking find you know that's a way to go it talks about meditation it talk I mean in the research again this is AI Not me firsthand, but it talks about some of those things like and I get the feeling the church would frown upon that — Yes, the the church certainly frowns upon anything that is taking you out of your uh ability to make rational decisions. Um so that being said, the you know I I we're here with a a doctor who has a medical process, — not a physician.

[25:47] — Correct. Right. But but but like I think I think the world's understanding now is gradually changing of what's medicine and what's not. And so the church says yeah you can use any medicine. You just can't use you know hallucinogenics. You can't you can't you can't alter your psychic state. Um however unless it's for medical reasons. So I I I struggle with this not in the sense of like I I don't you know is that a path again back to the first question is that a pathway that could open people up it definitely seems to open people up to the divine and and maybe it's just because they're getting rid of barriers psychic barriers or just issues they've had much like therapy would do or something else right I to me it opened me up like a lot of what you guys have said might change that's that's 100% where it's come or 100 but mostly where it's come from and I've watched multiple people that it's made them more religious more spiritual but many of them more Christian right and I I find it interesting how did what did you say that it it's something about it not being able to change the mind or control the mind what how did you what did you say — well that that the church would frown on something that that makes you lose control of your mind and and at the same time I think in these experiences.

[27:09] People say that it it didn't um — well, you you you tell us your experience, but it would be like you you need to let go enough. You need to let go of your experiences. And this is just good leadership. Like you have to be able to get outside of your perspective enough to see a different perspective. — Yeah. I have I have a couple perspectives on that. One, the people saying that almost guaranteed have never done it. So, they actually don't know what they're talking about. But two, you don't lose control of your mind. You your mind becomes much more open and receptive. And in my experience, I am talking to God. Now, whether that's energy, the universe, the star. I mean, I I think of God a little different than a guy with a beard and a robe and a chair, right? But I think we're talking about I I'm really convinced we're talking about the same God, right? the one that you experienced doing iawasa as somebody that's praying. — I think it's the exact same thing. And — I almost look at it as a cheat code — to talk to God and actually to listen it. God tells you what to do. That's my experience with it is that God is very directly, hey dumbass, this is what you're supposed if you just listen to me, life would be a lot easier and this is what you should do. My conversation with Josh Graham hit a ton of stuff from my childhood. Like I don't know if we talked about it with him, but I used to read like the Tom Clansancy books and every other author who's like him. So talking to Josh for me was like diving into the real world of Tom Clancy and getting answers. Even the ones where he said I couldn't answer the way like the John was hoping to. Like that was — Yeah. You were like a little kid at Christmas. It was fantastic just to sit and watch. I I mean in bringing Josh back a second like I'm gonna bring him back again and think about like all the Tom Clansancy books and questions I have like the Jack Ryan series from Amazon like and the fact that he can talk about some of it. I just I find that totally fascinating and a lens into a world that most of us don't get or don't want to see into.

[29:12] — Sure. So I went to I went to Biola to be a high school history teacher and a basketball coach. Uh but I started traveling and I went to Israel and Palestine in the summer of 2000 and that was right before the second inifat and inifata means uprising in Arabic. So that's when the Palestinians you know started throwing rocks again at the Israelis that year and then uh and then after that um — this is while you're in college. — This is while I was in college. I did a summer tour there and then I went into uh China in the spring of 2001 and that was right when they were joining the WTO and they were kind of coming out of you know their own isolationist um idea and uh you know that was the first crisis of George uh President George W. Bush's administration when their fighter pilot hit our spy plane and it crashed landed on Hainan Island and I was on Hainan Island, you know, visiting friends uh who were, you know, missionaries there and and but the purpose of the trip was just to look at China's education system and uh and so — college organized trip.

[30:14] — That's right. Well, it was a norwok Lamada school district organized trip in Southern California, but then we stayed an extra week long to to visit some friends and uh and so we went to, you know, Beijing and Shanghai and Guing and and um and then Tian looking at different schools and then we stayed extra uh to go down to Hainan Island and Hainan is kind of like their Hawaii. It's really beautiful. bullets in the South China Sea and and that's exactly where you know the the crash landed and and this great international incident occurred and I still have the People's China liberation daily uh says the US apologizes for you know uh injuring the the pride of China and said no we actually didn't apologize but that was the propaganda that uh that showed up in their newspaper and then coming back from that I was like I don't want to teach history. How can I teach history if I haven't, you know, learned history? I haven't learned the world yet. And so I changed my major to polyai and I went to DC for an internship. Uh, you know, 3 months, four months after I got back from China and first day on Capitol Hill was 911 and and so it was, you know, Tuesday, September 11th, 2001. Uh, you know, Monday was classes. I showed up and uh at my I was interning in a Capitol Hill office and uh focusing on human rights issues in the former Soviet Union and you know just cutting newspaper clippings. is, you know, before the iPhone and everything and watching, you know, the the buildings get hit in New York City and I was like, "Wa, that's here. That's us." And knowing that, you know, the Pentagon hadn't been hit yet, but there was potentially a fourth and possibly coming to the Capitol building and they evacuated everyone else first uh before they let the interns go uh all the important people. And and so finally they let me go about uh I think we were evacuated around 9:30 and I got there at 8:30. So I was only on the job for 1 hour before you know this one of the most formative international events of you know in history occurred.

[32:24] — That's intense. It was uh and you know if you've seen the movie Armag Armageddon with Bruce Willis and everyone you know the you know the meteors are showering down and you know people are running on their cell phones screaming crying that's kind of what it felt like in that day because you know there weren't meteor sh more missiles or anything like that but no one knew anything and it felt chaotic and people were emerging from parking garages and you know screaming and crying and mothers trying to get a hold of daycarees and I couldn't get a hold of my parents, you know, in in Georgetown, Texas, and they just knew that I had just shown up in DC, and chaos ensued. Uh, and on top of that, my my aunt uh lives in Manhattan. So, you know, two different family members were in, you know, the epicenters of this great crisis. So, I, you know, it was about a 15-minute walk back to my apartment building with all the other college students at the time. and but it took me an hour and a half because we had to get routed completely to a different part and just a long walk home. Uh and and then about a month later they found anthrax in my building. So it was a very eventful fall. You know the global war on terror begins, anthrax was found which we thought was a second wave essentially. Uh and and then uh that concluded it. But that definitely put me on the track to join the CIA. Uh because of my knee injuries and you know probably you know uh my family was concerned about me joining the military after this great event. So I was like okay well I don't have the knees to go into the army or the Marines or whatever. And that's what I really wanted to do. Uh I'll just go in my own way. I'll figure it out. And I had a lot of mentors who were involved in different government agencies, you know, for the, you know, from 2001 to, you know, for 5 years or so. And they just say, "Hey, you should consider the intelligence world. We're doing a lot of important things, a lot of good things, and and I think you'd be great at it."

[34:22] So eventually, I don't know exactly how much I was recruited versus how much I applied, but uh eventually I found my way there. Uh — it's not like it's not like you apply to like a job with somebody else. you you mean you do you walk up to the CIA and knock on the door and ask for an application and they're like yeah you know you want fries with that or — well actually if you go to cia.gov gov right now you can see you know submit your application and you know so it's a completely open and transparent application process uh never thought that I don't know right and then but uh but yeah your your application goes into a certain portal and and then I'm sure as you know any job situ or application if people know that you've applied and they're part of that world to put in a good word so I I suspect that happened but I don't have any verification uh of it happening you know later much later on I I realized that someone that I had lunch with, he was just being friendly to a, you know, 20some year old at the time. Uh u but he's he was like, you know, um I found out that he was the equivalent of a four-star general uh there and I just you know was mentoring a young man who wanted to serve his country. Um so uh but yeah, so I'm sure — the equivalent of a four-star general working for the CIA, correct?

[35:33] — Who happened to mention like intelligence might be a good career for you and right your applicate. — Yep, that's right. [laughter] I was joking before the show that I'd read like a bunch of talky novels and like all the other authors who write in that genre. I'm like how much how like how real is that? That sounds a little as my son would say sus. — That's right. That's right. Yeah. My high school students it might be a little bit out of vogue now but yeah. — Yeah. [laughter] — So is is is there a [snorts] interview — There is. It's very lengthy and detailed and involved as you might expect. I mean there uh it all depends upon uh you know the the veracity and the integrity of um of the applicant of the candidate. Uh I was specifically applying to go into operations. Uh it's uh historically it's been called the operations officer route. Uh but more commonly now it's called the case officer route. Uh and so uh so I was applying to be a case officer in um and it's had different names but the director of operations or the national clandestine service. Um — so what does an operations officer do?

[36:39] Like what's what does that job description read like? — Yeah. So, so the responsibility of an operations officer uh is essentially to find the information uh that policymakers need in order to uh direct US policy for either the protection or the opportunistic you know um I guess economic growth uh but it it primarily the protection of national security or uh to pave the way for the future if you will. So uh you know identify — use the word spies yet but is that part of that word? Oh, abs. Absolutely. So, I mean like I mean that's uh spooks spy uh you know any of the you know you know the secret squirrel uh that's been a a commonly used term. So uh so the idea of uh identifying individuals that work uh either for foreign governments or have access to information internationally that can be of service to our country. uh then my job was to go out and convince them in one way or another uh to betray their own country and work uh for us. — And you're allowed to talk about that publicly now?

[37:40] — I mean, yes. For whatever reason, uh despite my efforts, the government chose to remove my cover for one year. So, officially, I worked for the CIA for one — So, you worked for the CIA longer than that? Maybe — one year. — Okay. One year. Got it. [laughter] Video, too. It's okay. Wow. Okay. I have so many more. Go ahead. Okay. So, there's tons of movies about the CIA, right? Tons of books like The Recruit with Pacino. Like, — I I don't want to know which parts are true because I'm not sure if you can tell us that or not, but tell us which parts are definitely not true. — Uh, personally, I think the — or if you can tell us what's true, let us know that, too. Personally, I believe the the two best movies, well, the best show that I've ever seen that reflects the work of my former colleagues, uh, is called The Americans. Uh, it's, uh, it was on FX for a long time. — I watched it. — Yeah. And I I think I mean their their adviser on that show uh was a former case officer and uh the the trade craft and the the lifestyle of living undercover was is incredibly u accurate uh for the the work that I experienced.

[38:58] — It's a movie or a — It's a show. I think it was about four or five seasons. — I'll go check it out. Uh but it it I mean it was uh probably 15 years ago that it concluded, but it is remarkable. I mean the act it's a slow burn and I would describe that as more accurate than Jason Bourne or Bond or whatever. Uh I mean it's it's a strategic game and and so you're many times looking for the long play uh in order to secure information or an operation uh securely and safely. — Okay. You said that was the first one. What was the second one? — Uh I mean I think I mean there's another one called the American with George Clooney. Okay. Uh um that I thought was pretty good. Um it's more towards the end of his tenure if you will. Uh and but again it's a slow burn. Uh but it gets really into the character development and and operating uh you know kind of in an international scene when you're a lone wolf. And I think that would describe it best. Uh you are a lone wolf out there uh as opposed to working with a team.

[40:03] — Hypothetically does it ever get as intense or traumatic as they make some of those shows look like? Like like does it ever get — sometimes? Yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean there there are definitely moments where I knew who I was operating against but I was quite sure that uh there were others out there that I was unaware of and uh and you know because of the the characteristics of the mission. um I had to take a a even a higher level of protocol of safety for my own self, you know, for people back home uh or uh or just for the the sanctity of of the work itself. Uh because you know, some things are obvious, but you know, what can what can kill you is what you don't know or what you don't what you don't know that you don't know. — And did you have to operate overseas too — Yeah, the CIA doesn't operate domestically. So, — and you were where? — Uh, I mean I Arabic was my primary uh language of of use. So, that was where I was primarily working, but I did work um — In these shows that John's referencing, movies, etc., inevitably, there is especially it seems like the case managers or whatever, they have a relationship, whether it's the Russian spy or the Middle Eastern spy. Is that a real thing?

[41:22] — Absolutely. Yeah. — Yes. Yeah, many times you know it's it can be uh friendly but it it's dangerous if you become friends uh because you know the mission is always to serve the United States and the United States people uh and and so if you start I mean you have to think of the other the in the best interest of the other person uh commonly but you can't you can't sacrifice the mission for the person and and so that was one of the aspects of the work that I think eventually broke me if you will and uh which caused me to leave also uh because it wasn't uh you know I love the the name of your podcast tales of of abundance and the idea of of flourishing comes to mind uh it is not a place of flourishing I mean there are some remarkable patriots that uh that I uh know that are still there and others that you know I don't know but I know that they're remarkable able patriots and human beings that work there. Um, but it is a incredibly challenging life.

[42:27] Uh, and I want to uh respect and honor uh all the work that they do. Um, those that genuinely serve the United States and the and the people that um — you you were single at this time. — I was single. — Yeah. It'd be I can't imagine doing that with a family. — Correct. And when I first got married, my wife would not infrequently ask me, "Do you wish you still were a part of the CIA?" And my most frequent uh response or perhaps my only response was uh I mean there is no doubt that I would be a better officer than if we were married uh and I was in but it would be horrible for our marriage uh because there are too many times where I would have to leave her in the dark and you know either literally or figuratively like she would not know what I was doing. I couldn't tell her what I was doing. Uh and and then other times literally, you know, there are times that I would have to go and do work uh with very little goodbye. Uh that's not as common as probably most people think, but it is a part of the job. Um and and we have a very, you know, close relationship. we met each other later in life and and you know trust and um you know friendliness and love is the bedrock of our marriage. Uh and so in addition to our our shared faith and so if if there's a whole part of my life that is you know partitioned off then it is challenging to uh to continue the have that as your foundation. Like is it is it a dangerous job like it's portrayed to be? Like your life is on the line like did you ever fear for your life in that process?

[44:15] — Yes. I mean it's I wouldn't say is it's as dangerous as you know born or whatever uh make it out to be. I mean I wasn't constantly hunted or whatever. Uh but I was consistently and constantly aware of the risk to me and my loved ones and my colleagues if I revealed uh class either classified information or my identity because I was working undercover. And so um and and it was of utmost importance to make sure that um my cover was protected uh so that I can continue to do the work but I could also protect myself and my loved ones. — Does that mean you worked for some other department of the government for some period of time? — Yeah, there's multiple different ways that the um that people undercover work. — yeah, s I could go on this to bring him back. I have to buy him coffee and we'll have to go. I this is so interesting to me just yeah — is is there a particular story you can you can tell us that you know without it revealing classified information or whatever where you felt like you were in danger or I mean is there is there a specific instant — uh yeah I can I can talk in some uh generalities about one specific one uh and so uh you know I was I'm not going to mention the country I'm not going to mention you know even the continent uh but the goal was the goal of the mission uh was to uh determine if a country had weapons of mass destruction program, an active program. Uh and and so I had to create a cover. I had to create a work uh that was consistent with me being having the opportunity to plausibly and innocently interview uh interview individuals that might have access to uh their weapons of mass destruction. uh this countries and so we knew because of conferences and academic uh opportunities that people uh would travel out of that country into friendly countries and and so I would I created this uh you know the story in order to interview in this individual and I needed to make sure that he was not he did not suspect me of my true affiliation. uh but rather uh everything could be uh proven on the innocence of the notion. Okay. the notional innocence, I guess. And and so, you know, I leveraged an individual that was working at a conference with this uh this guy from this country. Uh and he was one of the, you know, the smartest individuals and uh scientists and one of the few individuals that we thought that that would have access to uh weapons of mass destruction. So I enter into the country uh under uh you know a fictitious representation and uh and um I I have already begun my communication with uh with that the gobetween and that gobetween had no clue who I really was. Uh but that gave me a cutout in order to increase my authenticity and my integrity uh in the eyes of this person who would immediately suspect me because people like me don't just randomly go up to people like him from the country that he was from. So he's acting as uh you know my uh authenticator if you will and I'm working there. But because, and this is what I was referencing earlier, I knew that the country that I was in was most likely watching me, but I was also quite uh confident that the country he was from also had his own surveillance that was watching him in addition to perhaps one or two other countries. uh because of the nature of this individual and his work and the danger of uh what if this country actually had nuclear weapons or a biomedical or you know um bioweapons program and so I was operating you know a spy v spy v spy v spy I mean it was probably like 40 chess happening and uh thankfully uh you know I had multiple meetings everything was you know above ground uh I you know everything was consistent with uh uh you know who I said I was but I was also able to achieve the mission that the that the government gave me to do. Uh and uh thankfully uh you know there have been no retributions or any uh risk either from then or afterwards.

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