Giants in the Bible, Miracles & Psychedelics

Show notes

Giants in the Bible, Miracles and Psychedelics: A Candid Conversation With Kristian Jaloway

How big were the giants in the Bible? Could Noah's Ark really hold every animal? Randy Lorensen and Dr. John Oberg ask Kristian Jaloway the questions many people are afraid to ask, with curiosity rather than as a gotcha.

Kristian is a cradle Catholic who spent years training for the priesthood, including two years as a missionary in Venezuela, before leaving and coming back to the faith. Today he consults for Catholic dioceses, parishes and schools.

The conversation covers how literally to read Genesis, flood stories found across cultures, what a "day" and a cubit meant, miracles versus magic, and how the Bible was assembled, from the apocryphal books to the Book of Enoch. After the break, they get into giants, sorcery, and the Holy Spirit.

They also talk openly about psychedelics: what the church thinks, the theory linking the burning bush to the acacia plant, and experiences from ayahuasca ceremonies. The episode ends with the sense of awe in front of the divine.

The Nephilim, the Book of Enoch, Noah's Ark and the Church on Psychedelics

What you'll discover:

How literally to read Noah's Ark, Genesis and the flood stories
Miracles versus magic, and how Catholics read the miracles of Jesus
How big the giants in the Bible were
How the Bible was assembled, and the Book of Enoch and other apocryphal books
Psychedelics, the burning bush theory, and what the church thinks
The Holy Spirit: its symbols, and the divine feminine

This episode is for educational purposes only and isn't medical advice.

Timestamps

[00:00] Welcome: hard questions about the Bible with Kristian Jaloway
[01:10] Why ask these questions? Exploring faith isn't attacking God
[02:20] A cradle Catholic, and John's journey back from agnosticism
[03:02] Kristian's path toward the priesthood
[04:10] Missionary years in Venezuela as Chávez rose to power
[06:10] Philosophy, leaving, a crisis of faith, and coming back
[07:27] Consulting for Catholic dioceses, parishes and schools
[08:42] Why the church needs leadership and management skills
[09:48] From calling to calling: priesthood to coaching
[11:14] Can people of faith handle uncertainty?
[12:01] Noah's Ark: fitting all the animals, and how literally to read Genesis
[15:51] What the flood story is about, and flood events 12,600 years ago
[18:19] Explaining something doesn't make it less meaningful
[19:36] Did God speak to our first parents? Early humans and Eden
[23:01] What does a "day" mean? Cubits and the size of the ark
[24:20] The God-shaped hole: why humans are religious by nature
[25:44] Different religions, the same search for God
[28:06] "You can say anything you want until Rome speaks"
[29:20] Jesus' early life and Catholic teaching
[30:34] Miracle or magic? Water into wine
[31:51] What did Mary know?
[34:05] Loaves, fishes and the Red Sea: how should we read miracles?
[36:30] The Catechism, and misconceptions about Catholicism
[39:06] Did people once have abilities we've lost?
[40:27] What's the probability Jesus was who he said he was?
[42:39] Creationism versus Darwinism: why can't both be true?
[43:51] What would the world look like without Christianity?
[46:22] Forgive seventy times seven
[47:30] Sponsor break: Premium Cabinets
[48:21] Giants: David and Goliath, and how big they really were
[50:00] Ancient heights, giant bones, and the tallest man on record
[52:39] Magic, sorcery and selling your soul
[56:11] How the Bible was assembled, and the apocryphal books
[59:56] Consistency over 2,000 years, and Martin Luther
[1:02:15] The Gospel of Mary Magdalene and The Da Vinci Code
[1:03:54] The Book of Enoch
[1:04:51] Was the canon shaped by politics?
[1:06:16] The church came first, then the Bible
[1:07:21] A 2,000-year-old institution, and the Napoleon story
[1:08:26] Speaking in tongues and the charismatic movement
[1:09:11] Psychedelics: what the church thinks, and John's perspective
[1:13:22] Grace for the church, and rules that change: Fridays and fish
[1:15:47] Circumcision then and now
[1:17:07] The pineal gland, the Vatican pine cone, and the acacia bush
[1:20:50] The burning bush theory
[1:22:02] Experiences from ayahuasca journeys
[1:24:32] Lost abilities, energy work and the soul
[1:28:14] The Holy Spirit: energy or God?
[1:30:20] The unmoved mover: God is love
[1:31:37] Symbols of the Holy Spirit: dove, fire, wind, water, oil and seal
[1:32:45] The divine feminine, and the Holy Spirit in other religions
[1:34:09] God can reach you through any means, and the sense of awe
[1:36:10] Wrap-up

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About Kristian Jaloway

Kristian Jaloway is a cradle Catholic who trained for the priesthood and served as a missionary in Venezuela before leaving. He now works as a management consultant and leadership advisor to Catholic dioceses, parishes and schools.

Find Kristian:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristianrjaloway/

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🌐 Website: https://talesofabundance.com/
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▶️ YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Tales_of_Abundance
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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:02] about some of the hard questions in the Bible. Uh, and the things that I think a lot of times people are almost afraid to ask. Uh, we have a great guest, Kristian Jaloway, who is very religious, knows scripture inside and out. Knows the Catholic Church inside and out. Yet, Kristian has an amazing ability to approach things with an open, curious mind. and he realizes that exploring ideas and asking questions, it's not attacking God, uh, but it's exploring his faith at a deeper level. And I think you guys are going to find this really entertaining. And, and for me, it's just so refreshing in today's world for somebody to be able to really look at things they believe deeply in and actually ask and answer the hard very excited. In fact, I I think I'm more excited for this episode than any episode we've done. Um, we have a f a mutual friend of John and I's here, uh, Kristian Jaloway, who what I'm really hoping to to do is recreate lunch conversations that we've had that I think the world will find interesting.

[01:10] Um, Christian is a management consulting man management consultant, best-selling author, etc., etc. And we're not going to talk about any of that stuff. Um, we are going — I think some background is probably helpful for the listener, right, to know who he is and why you're actually talk. I mean, we'll get into his background, — we'll do that, but that's not that's not the purpose. We're going to dig into the Bible, faith, religion, and some of the things. So, Kristian also was a Catholic priest and which will be part of the journey. And one of the things I really appreciate is his ability to discuss things in an open-minded um curious way that I that I find really rare within people, especially people that have that have worked in the clergy or wherever else. And he's he's willing to come at these things with an open mind. And I have a lot of weird questions that nobody else I ever hear ask. So I'm going to ask Kristian all the all of the weird questions. And you know, I think it's I think it's worth noting Kristian. Would it be safe to say you're a lifetime believer? Like you found God.

[02:12] — I've had my moments, but yeah, I've I've been cradle Catholic as they call it. So — cradle C. I assume that means — grew up from the cradle. My parents were Catholic. Their generations back have been Catholics. And uh Yep. — And you know, versus John who you have, you know, you had more doubt and are more recently. Oh, I was like a genuine agnostic for 20some years. — Yeah. And and we've talked about on previous episodes that trans, you know, and we you can go back to that, but you know, and then there's me that's, you know, I don't even know what the hell I am. So, I I've got a little a little different journey. — You're I mean, it's been moving for the last couple years in particular. — Oh, definitely. I'm I'm way more religious and spiritual than I was. and uh you know it's just it's we don't have to get into all that but the so let's let's go into the background. — So tell us and you know I think your journey to the priesthood like where did that come from? I mean the cradle Catholic but — but your journey is interesting there there aren't very many people I've met that were a that were a priest and at a you know at a high level and ascending — to then walk away from it. So let's — took a long time to get there. So I I left right after high school. I was already interested in doing youth work and uh helping in the church as a volunteer even in high school and met this group of Catholic priests called the Legionaries of Christ who are very young dynamic um enthusiastic turned out they did to be a little bit of a a cult type following of their of their priest who had some issues later and we can we'll get into that but the uh the the calling so to speak felt like I wanted to do something big for the world. I wanted to have an impact. I wanted to um follow this particular group because they had a great sales pitch. It was like you're going to go to Rome and study and learn foreign languages and meet the pope and make a huge difference and and help people around the world be a min missionary. So joined was in Connecticut, New York for five years doing kind of their boot camp and then started an internship and went to South America for two years. I was in Venezuela and Caracus right when Chavez was coming into his his uh element there and uh then Rome for four years studying um not in the Vatican but very close to it uh philosophy and then theology and then was uh assigned as what they call vice director. So I was in charge of formation for a house for young guys who were studying uh they were really studying high school but some of them were thinking about priesthood as well and that was in northern Italy. So I was learning Italian. I'd already learned Spanish and loved all the studies. It was fascinating diving into philosophy of all types and backgrounds. Um learning all these these things that were helpful for u ministry later and just meeting people from around the world. I mean Venezuela's so we can get into more of that. But anyways, um to get to the to the the crisis moment was a week after I was ordained a priest in 2008, the information about our founder, Father Masiel, uh came started to come public, which was basically he was this charismatic leader who had a total back, you know, double background or double double life with um lots of abuse cases and all that stuff that started come out in the public around 2002 and and then and then more over time. So that didn't lead immediately to a crisis of my faith. But it did lead me to reexamine my vocation or my calling to the priesthood. Um and so 3 years later, uh really started diving deep, made the hardest decision ever, but I felt God wasn't actually calling me to be a priest. It was something else. I didn't know what at the time. And uh and so I left. I came back to Austin. I met John, you know, got into this business coaching consulting world. Realized I I actually really liked helping people change. really enjoyed and was really good at the one-on-one conversations and um and the philosophy gave me a background where I was able to bring those elements into the conversation from a very broad perspective without getting um without being too judgmental although John frankly has helped me a lot in that journey too uh to understand uh other people's perspectives better.

[06:30] So yeah, here I am now what it's been um 8 nine years later working — I mean a couple things we so Kristian's a full partner the general manager of our nonprofit institutional work inside of John Oberg Advisory just so it doesn't sound like you know John this like we work together every single day and so that's uh and it's been a real joy to kind of watch it — and and you I mean tell people what you're doing because you're still working with the Catholic Church so just give give people a quick overview on like what you're — it's not the only thing you're doing but but I think that's interesting that you're you're still involved, — right? And and I didn't start this in initially when I uh left the Legionaries. Initially, I didn't want anything to do with the church. And that was kind of my my uh prodigal son moment when I was like I frankly I was in crisis for you know a good year and a half, two years. I couldn't pray. I wasn't going to church. I wasn't doing anything. And my life also wasn't going very well in that period of of time. I had Yeah, we can get into that. But um so when I kind of came back to the faith and started really working professionally and getting more involved with John, my initial focus was on management consulting for and leadership training, all that stuff for um institutions like government institutions. So it was fire departments, it was city government, it was that was partly I was exploring legal work that didn't seem like it was going to be a good fit. And so I was looking at public policy. He did a master's at Texas A&M Bush School of Government and that's where all that led to and so it was it was working with John. was talking to other people and realizing, man, all these business tools would have been so helpful when I was in ministry, when I was doing missionary work, when I was running a school, when I was running a a seminary, like I didn't have any of this stuff. Would have been super helpful. And so when I started talking to priest friends, they said the same thing. And uh and gradually the work went from just government to more and more churches to where now it's 90% we're working with pastors um their leadership teams bishops running a dascese or a region and all the different you know Catholic schools and so it's just growing because that's where the need is and we have that skill set and I can speak both their languages.

[08:42] — So it's safe to say the Catholic Church doesn't teach these skills at all or very minimally. — Yes. uh minimally would be generous. I I think every priest I've talked to acknowledges that they don't get any of this in seminary. They might give one one off-hand, not even a class. They might give one talk from um I'll give you an example. One said, "One of the best talks we had was from the maintenance guy at the seminary because he's closed the doors and he said, "Let's get real. Most of your time you're going to be fixing plumbing. You're going to be, you know, turning on the lights. You're going to be dealing with, you know, all that kind of stuff." And so he just got really um real with them about what their actual work was going to look like 9 to5. He's like, "Yeah, you'll be celebrating mass, but how long? An hour a week? What do you do the rest of the time?" You know, what what's your actual job going to look like? And so, um yeah, they don't they don't get this stuff in seminary and and they find it super helpful when they start to peel back that onion and see what it really looks like and how people do this in other organizations. So I think there's an interesting lesson there for listeners like your calling right I mean your calling went from the priesthood to coaching to coaching the Catholic churches or you know parishes dascese whatever you call them — like how did that evolve like take us through that process a little bit. Yeah, the process was slow mostly because I honestly the biggest the biggest obstacle to it was in my own heart. Like I had this attitude of, "Hey man, I tried to help the church and and it didn't work very well." You know, they they burned me pretty bad. Like I was pretty angry when I left. I didn't recognize it initially. I had I had people tell me that and uh and I didn't believe it. I was in the denial stage, I think, of grief. And it it just took time to work through that, to kind of think through it and get to a place where I felt ready to go and help somebody who I felt I'd been hurt by.

[10:43] That's really the heart of it. Um and of course along the way there was learning the processes. There was learning all the business side of it. There was, you know, reading all the books. There was um you know, I went down there there are some other institutions and groups that try to help the church in this way. And so I read all of their books, but I was reading these business books from highlevel consultants and and and organizations and reading the business books from the church side. I was like, "Wow, there's a huge gap here." And so it just felt natural to to step into that gap. — Right. So listeners, I think it's worth noting John and I both have faith spiritual conversations with Kristian. I think it's safe to say John and I have very different conversations. You'd agree with that, Kristian? — Probably. Yeah. — Yeah. I think John is having them more from a hardcore Catholic. I'm having them more from a plant medicine woo woo um magic giants. So that that's some of the stuff I want to get into. But — I mean frankly that's part of the fun for me for this conversation cuz I've never thought to ask Kristian about giants and like — that sounds like fun to talk about.

[11:48] — Yeah. And I I do want to make it clear, one of the things I appreciate about Kristian is he will have these with an open mind, but this isn't a got you or you know, like one of the questions I have is, you know, how the hell did Noah fit all those animals on the ark, right? And I'm not trying to disprove. Yeah. I'm I'm not trying to disprove the Bible. It's not a gotcha. It's but I just like these are things that I'm curious about and I think other people are curious about. So, I just really appreciate that we can have the open conversation because from my experience, usually when I ask somebody that's that's Christian, whether they're Catholic or not, this these tend to make them very uncomfortable any kind of uncertainty or anything that they they don't understand. And so, your willingness to talk about them is really refreshing and thank you for that. But, — yeah, thanks. — So, let's start let let's start with the ark. I brought it up. Noah's arc. — Right there. How in the hell do you get all those animals? I mean, two of everything. That's a big big boat. — Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, from — So, so the theory cuz because again, like we don't have any we don't have any documentation in a historical sense as we do for other parts of the New Testament. So, here we're talking Old Testament. So, we're talking uh you know 4,000 6,000 years ago, you know, from from the time in the New Testament of Jesus's time, 2,000 plus years ago. Uh we have other documentation from Roman historians and and people like that who verify a lot of it from third party sources here. We don't we don't have that. So, the first thing to say is all of this is um theory to that degree.

[13:29] at the same time. Well, there there there's a museum of the of Noah's Arc that's been rebuilt. I forgot where somewhere in Ohio, I think, and you can go and see according to the the uh stand the measurements from the Bible and what they think it looks like and all that stuff. I've never been. But, um the the the thing is this, the problem answering all these questions is was is the Bible literal or — You tell me. — Okay. the the Christian answer is both. — Okay, go on. — So both meaning did well and we have to keep in mind what's the purpose of the Bible? Purpose of the Bible is not a historical documentation. The purpose of the Bible is not to tell us how the world was built or when it was built, but re really it's just the why. The Bible only tries to answer a question why. Why are we here? What's our purpose? What's our what's our what's the purpose of everything? It's not trying to say how did it get here? You know, I I'll give you another example when it just comes to the the book of Genesis is uh was it was the world actually made in eight days, you know, seven days? Well, what was a day if on the fifth day light was created, right?

[14:44] Like so it's very hard to read it literally and and get a whole lot of it won't make sense if you try to read it literally the whole time you know and it doesn't mean it's all mythological or just storytelling it it's so back to Noah's ark did Noah's arc happen there were is there a flood probably I mean there is now a lot more evidence geological evidence that there was a very large flood at some point in human history and it Was was it universal around the entire globe? Probably not. You know, there's some who think that like this is an open discussion, but probably not. It was probably the whole known world, which was the fertile crescent. And how big exactly? I I I don't know. I haven't done all the research on that, right? Um so, you know, back to the animals. I mean, man, we have more and more species discovered every single day. So I think now from our perspective today of biology, could we really fit every animal in the ark? Just physically no, I think is the clear answer. But what does the story tell us? Right? The story from a biblical perspective, spiritual perspective is there was a lot of evil.

[16:00] It wasn't good. God did not like it. And God said we need to kind of restart. And so, did it happen exactly the way it's described in the Bible? I I mean, I don't know. I don't I don't think any of us do. I mean, we'll have to — Well, let me ask you this. So, by the way, that puts a lot of pressure on the reader or a lot of figuring it out, but that that's a whole another story. You were saying four to 5,000. The Bible would have it at 4 or 5,000 years ago. How how confident are we on that? — Pretty pretty confident. I mean I mean um we could look it up I'm sure and get a a biblical timeline of when the Old Testament is but I mean the further you back go back in history and I think any any history um person would say this in fact you guys had a great conversation with with a history professor right who could give you much more precise dates but but even those quote precise dates the further you go back are not extremely precise their averages their ranges their estimations. So what would be your thoughts there? There's growing evidence it seems like by the month, by the year that about 12,600 years ago that there were massive flooding events all over the world, right? And multiple cultures have there there's a lot of cultures that have stories of these flood events, right?

[17:16] And it was about 12,600 years ago. — It just seems logical to me. And again, this isn't trying to disprove one wrong. I mean, Noah's arc could be completely accurate. It's just the time frames off doesn't make it wrong. — I mean, there's no dinosaurs on the on the ark, I think, based on those time frames. So, at least answer one. We have at least one solid answer to our podcast — But but what's the chances that that coincides with that massive worldwide flooding 12,600 years ago? — Definitely possible, right? Like any of that is possible. I mean, what was, you know, was the flooding of that time the flood of Noah's, you know, of Noah's arc story? Um, I don't know. Was it was it based on you know ice ages coming and Very pro like like the fact that we assign a spiritual significance to events that also have some sort of um logical explanation from a a geological perspective doesn't make that the significance is any less true. Does that make sense? Like that's that's what I think. I mean, we do this all the time is we we we we look at things, we experience things and we say, "Wow, that was God." Like John has a great story if you go and YouTube it of of his conversion experience.

[18:33] Did he like what's the proof that that's God intervening in a in a physical way in his life? And in a sense, it doesn't matter because it's his experience, right? And so, so clearly for the people who were on the ark or who were there in that in that story, they definitely had a had a very strong experience of God's mercy and love and salvation and so much so that like that story has stayed, right? So, I I find it fascinating that all these different stories like you're talking about do exist and have these parallels and overlaps. Like there's so many stories about um about some type of savior. There's so many stories about um so so many biblical stories have a um parallel right in different cultures in different times across across the world that we knew as far as we know. I mean there's theories about maybe they were talking to each other or there were there were people traveling around the planet but but we don't know that. I mean most likely they weren't. So, so what that leads to from from a Christian perspective is an interesting again theory, but that there was some sort of um revelation that God and again this goes back to the book of Genesis is that God probably did talk to our first parents in a very clear way. So much so that everybody kind of has these same stories in different ways in different cultures, right? And if you line that up with the spread of people across the globe, it it would make sense. Again, theory, I I don't know.

[20:09] — Boy, I got so many ways I could go here and follow-up questions. Um the let's stick with the time frame thing a little bit. Like Garden of Eden, is that also in this 4 to 6,000 range? — Uh I don't — older. That's got Well, that's got to be — Yeah. Yeah. I I think that's older again. I'm I'm I should have brought the timeline. I was actually thinking that. — can you John, can you Google Google that we're asking? You — got it. — Let's assume it's Let's assume it's 8 10 thousand years. Okay. I'm — And John John will get us an answer. — Well, now we know that human beings have been on the planet for hundreds of thousands of years, right? Like that are not that different than us. And that doesn't even count Neanderthalss and all the other things that have gone away. Like what is — I I don't know. I mean, I guess my question is, did God not give a until the Garden of Eden? Does there is there like or is it — was that 200,000 years ago? — Well, I think I think no matter what the timeline looks like, um it's it's pretty clear from biology and and and studies as far as I can see um that I guess it's evolutionary biology. I don't know what the topic is exactly, but that there was some type of evolution over time and at some point uh an you know whatever creature that was that was pre-man didn't so so the the the Christian conception of man is it's a it's a incarnate soul. So it's a it's a spiritual soul infused by God at the moment of of each person's creation uh you know conception and in in a physical human body. And so um what that would look like then is that at the moment the human body was ready for the soul, God said basically poof, you're a man. Like here's your human soul. Right before that it was whatever other creature — was an animal.

[22:05] — It was an animal. — Yeah. We're still very developed, but more what we call an animal. — Right. Right. An animal with consciousness, with willpower, with ability to love and know and know himself. That's the biggest thing about consciousness, I think, based on a a h a spiritual soul is you can know yourself and understand yourself and others. — Okay. So, here's some timelines. So, evolutionary journey of human lineage began much earlier. Transition from ape-like ancestors starting around 6 million years ago. Anatomically, modern humans, homo sapiens, first appeared in Africa approximately 300,000 years ago. Two forms of creationism, young earth and old earth. Uh, young earth puts the dates around 44 BC based on a 17th century archbishop. Old earth creationism, which is another school of thought, says more like 50 to 120,000 years ago or more. And Islamic tradition scholars say that that part of Adam and Eve in the garden about 25,000 years ago. So, there's a lot of debate around what's actually happening. And then, you know, this quick, you know, uh, read that I did didn't hold out the fact that, you know, um, you know, what does a day mean? Like there there's argument about what a cubit was in Noah's arc, right? A cubit was the length of an arm, which was anywhere from 18 to 20 inches, putting it from 450 to 500 ft long. So, it's possible that people argued about what a day meant as well. you know, it may not have been a very particular like one rotation of the earth or the kind of very like we're measuring years and milliseconds now with atomic clocks, right? And so I think that's a part of the conversation that's interesting.

[23:38] — So what about different cultures that have the same stories as the Bible, right? Like — I I haven't done enough research on this. So I'm asking you and I I think this is accurate. — Like Jonah and the whale from my understanding almost every religion has some story that mimics that. And there's a there's a lot of other examples. Like — what do you think that is? — Yeah, it could be a couple of things. Uh and it probably is various things, not just one. uh the the general Catholic answer to all these difficult questions is usually both and or it depends uh which you know in philosophy it's the same thing but when when you have these various stories one thing that it brings up I think is the fact that um or I say it as a fact but I but I do believe it is a fact is that uh there there's the human uh sorry every human has that god-shaped hole in their heart and so another way to say that is that man is by his very nature religious and being. In other words, he has a divine a search for the divine is built into us and and in that case the fact that we have different stories that uh correspond to that just would make sense that we're all looking for the same thing whe whatever journey that takes us on down different paths. But but if but if that's built into us, it makes sense that all of us are having some version of that, right? And and besides the fact that we all live on this planet, we all have a sensation I think in different ways at different times it's expressed differently. But that the creation around us brings us to God as well. You know this is a this is a general difference between east and west when it comes to religion is eastern religions tend to look at for God more starting from inside their own heart and more of an internal journey and western um religion tends to be focused more on the kind of cerebral um rational reasoning from the outside world towards God. But it's not like one's right or wrong in the sense that they're both they're both looking for God. Yeah. I mean, what's the chances that it's a lot of these different religions are different human beings taking the same events and interpret or the same messages and interpreting them differently and teaching and take having different — Yeah. Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think that there's a high prob probability of that. I mean, we see it all the time now. Look at whoever is reading off the news and you know the preacher on Sunday takes it one way and another preacher takes it another way and another takes it another way and you know some people I mean we we have the same events happening and we're reading about you know a war and some people are inspired to go and and and change something and some people just crawl into bed and can't get out right like we react differently to the same things all the time so I I think there's a high probability that yeah the same events happened and and we just interpreted them interpreted them differently.

[26:38] — I think you have all kinds of different like denominations inside the churches, the Catholic Church and the Protestant church, you know, and then you I mean even inside Catholic circles, you get people disagreeing about parts of Catholicism and you get people disagreeing about parts of different Protestant, you know, beliefs. And so, and I think there's a real difference between you there are people that seem to focus a lot of time, energy, and attention on what are the things we believe are different. And you know, um, for me, sadly, fewer people that focus on what are all the things that we think the same, you know, and it tears us apart instead of bringing us together, which, you know, I would argue is maybe a part of spiritual warfare. — Yeah, I I agree. Definitely. More more focus on what's the same than different would fits in a lot of areas of life, right? In a lot of things. — What about Okay, Julie asked me to ask this. Okay. All right. So there's in in the Bible there's times from I think it's when Christ was 14 to 30. I don't my years might be off years they call — them. I kind of don't know. What do we think what do we think happened there? I — there there's I know there's people that think that — that he was over talking to the monks the Buddhist monks and that was you know part of where that came from. But what — what do you think? So, so okay there's always on these conversations that are very very open is the official Catholic teaching and then there's and then there's kind of the speculation and just place you can go. So um there in fact there's a famous saying in Catholic theology of um you know you can say anything you want until Rome speaks. So there's all these conversations about hey you know it could be this way it could be that way and then the pope says nope it's this way and we're like okay great now we can go on to the next conversation. But um so so in that sense like the Bible doesn't say anything and the church therefore doesn't say anything. Um the church does say that there is no that all of rel re revelation all the revelation we need to be saved was given to us by Jesus Christ. Now that being said it was given to us in seed form and we do still need to understand it and develop it. And of course you know Jesus didn't have to deal with technology like we do. He didn't have to deal with AI and you know bioeththics and things. So of course we have to understand it in today's world.

[28:51] So all that being said, what was the — That's all preliminary. — What happened from 14 to 30? — What happened in 14 to 30? Um thanks for getting me back on track. So the the um yeah, so I mean the short answer is like I don't know. I mean the most likely scenario is what happens to all of us. He grew up like he he was probably you know he was a a um learning from his father the trade just like he would for everybody else. He was as a as a good Jewish boy, he was probably going to his basically Sunday school uh classes to learn the Torah and all those things. He didn't we what we we know he didn't do was he didn't take the regular form of a rabbi which was go on to the next third and fourth I forgot all the different classes they had. Um but he was learning a trade. Um — what's the official Catholic is the official Catholic teaching like we don't need to talk about it because we have what we need from the Bible. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. The official teaching would be it doesn't change how we relate to God.

[29:53] — Got it. — But but but I do think I I actually have a friend who's a priest. Um we'll we'll um Father Lucio, I think he's in uh in Ohio now, but um he wrote a book about the childhood of Jesus. I haven't I haven't read all the series now. He wrote a whole series on what that might look like, which is totally plausible. Like there's all kinds of stories you could imagine and and I think is really interesting. You know, there's there's some that are kind of become more like a little more fancul I think of like Jesus takes a little bit of clay and makes a little bird and then poof it, you know, and he's 5 years old and the bird flies away and things like that. Like could he have? Yes. Is that I don't think that's very consistent with the Jesus we see in the Bible — really. Turning water into wine isn't the same thing. — Well, that — I mean that's pretty I mean so — that's magic. Well, is it poss Well, no, not magic. I think magic is a little different. Like magic is where you're manipulating it, whereas a miracle is where you're letting God's power do the work. And of course, he was saying magical like that like that. Yeah. I mean, like that's like, — but there's a lot of it's it's I mean, you know, the the red I mean, this wasn't Jesus, but the the Red Sea and — rising from the dead and I mean, we could go on and on and on. There's a lot of these things, right? So, so why is why is turning a clay bird any different than John's water to wine?

[31:12] — It's possible. It's it doesn't look consistent with the fact that um we we he didn't start his public work until um well, it was it was Kaa, right? When he turned the the the water into wine, there was his first public miracle. That's what the Bible says. — So, could he have had other miracles? Yeah. I mean, the what's interesting, too, is think about Mary. like Mary and Joseph who raised him. So, did they know he was the son of God? Did they know he was divine? By all apparent, you know, measurements or or things in the Bible, they didn't really. There's no sign There's no explicit sign they did. Although, it'd be hard to guess that Mary didn't know something was up. — Didn't the angel Hold on. I My history is pretty bad here. Well, she knew. — Didn't the angel Gabriel come to her and tell her? — Well, yes, but what did that mean is what I mean. So, so yes, I mean she she had this all these miraculous events at at birth. Yeah. — Right. And and she knew I mean the Bible says she knew that she had not had relations with Joseph yet she became — So I don't know how good her biology was. Yeah. She said the Holy Spirit is going to come over you and overshadow you and all these things. But these are this is the first time it happened in — if that like how would you know what that means?

[32:28] — Aren't we handwaving over a virgin birth — Yeah, that's what it's called, right? the version. — I mean I mean — I don't know. I mean I I think they had they had to figure something's up if there's a — birth but imagine this is again the imagination but imagine then that happens. Okay you have this miraculous baby and then everything is normal for the next 30 years you kind — except for a clay bird flying away. — Well maybe yeah — not totally normal though because there were like times that like Jesus as a kid was like teaching in the church. Yeah, there were there were there was two or three occasions. So there was the you know they had to flee to Egypt because he was they were trying to kill him. They come back and then there was a presentation in the temple where he gets lost and he's teaching in the temple. So so those are the only things we know for sure that are in the Bible, right? What what other things happened and and those are the things that are recorded that clearly were I imagine they were recorded because Mary is teaching the apostles after Jesus dies. Like these are big things. It probably, again, this is theory, but probably all the other things just seem so hum day-to-day normal that they didn't really think to talk about them or include them in the Bible because it was like, what difference does it make? It's just that's how all of us do it. That that's my guess. But, you know, again, if you think something else happened and he created clay birds all, you know, and made them fly, like maybe and if the fiction was he did it on his own because that was his way like that. It's an interesting fictional story, right?

[33:57] — Yeah. Yeah. — But but is that I mean what what is it? Let's go into water into wine or there was a story I got to brush up. Sea of Galilee the something with fish or like miraculous fish. — I think there's we got lo creating loaves of bread. I mean again the — you know I mean Moses and the Red Sea, — Like like there's a lot of — miracles, magic, whatever you want to call them. I mean, how are we supposed to look at this? I mean, what what what is that what am I supposed to take away from that? — Yeah. The the So, first of all, okay, again, C official Catholics teaching just so I don't get in trouble with anybody out there, Trent Horn or somebody, but anyways, the the um miracles are not required for you to be a believer. You do not have to believe in miracles to be a good believer in Jesus, a follower of Jesus. So, that's — Hold on. Hold on. I got push back here. All right. All right. All right, we got we got we got I got push back. — so we're supposed to So look, it's Christians tend to take the Bible very literally in almost every other way.

[35:01] Okay, like it's like there are very everything else there there's commandments and it's it's very decisive is that's my take. Maybe maybe you you two would disagree with that. But now all of a sudden these miracles were supposed because we can't relate to them in today's world. We're supposed to just handwave over the miracles, but we're supposed to take everything else literally. — So, no, I I think miracles have to be looked at as additions to our faith or or helps or aids to our faith. Um, again, back to the fact that we take different things and we look at the same event in different ways. I think you could look at event today that a lot of people are like, "That's a miracle and it really helps my faith." And other people are like there's got to be some other explanation. If you don't have faith, a miracle is not going to really help your faith. A it it can be an aid, but it's not what is what I'm saying is it's not required. They're additional aids to help us believe in Jesus and to help us be o more open to the divine, but they're not absolutely necessary.

[36:11] — Yeah. How much maybe it's a broad brush, Randy. I think I hear what you're struggling with like but but like talking about the Bible as one broad brush statement or uh all of the miracles described and not just in the Bible but for all the saints and you know in Catholicism like that's a fairly broad brush and so Catholics have done a really nice job of putting together a book right the catechism which tells people exactly what Catholics believe and it's very specific about what we believe and I've talked to a lot of people who are Protestants that told me all these things about Catholicism that were just candidly not true. And so, um, and and we can point back to that book and say like, hey, the catechism really lays out very specifically. And, and I think that because I mean, look, it's, um, you're you're talking about, you know, a very large topic that I think painting it with too broad a brush makes it impossible to get the the clarity you're you're asking about. But let me let me continue to dive in and just explore it. So, thanks for that because it's true. And like go back to the catechism on any questions about this.

[37:17] You can find it online. It's very easy. But the um but but you know the miracles in the Bible again are they literal or or um symbolic? I think both. You know, there has been a tendency in theology since in the 60s and 70s to say it was purely symbolic. For example, the multiplication of the loaves, right? That the little boy brings the loaves to Jesus. there's he feeds 5,000 pe you know people with three loaves and two fishes. Um and people say, "Oh, that was just even theologians, Catholic theologians have said this that that was just um the the true miracle was Jesus opening people's hearts." So they actually shared the food they actually had because nobody would have been there, you know, out in the wilderness without food for that long, right? So more symbolic is is that is that Yes. But that denies the fact that it says specifically that it was a miracle. So, so I think I think it can have that. Maybe that was an element of it. — Was it pretty clear though that like it came back with ba baskets of fish and baskets of bread? Like pretty clear on this one. It was — Yeah. 12 12 leftover baskets like and that that's an interesting thing. The other thing about miracles is is to that point or the or the fish that they found in Galilee. The chosen the film The Chosen does a great job portraying this is like it was not just like four or five fish when it was zero. It was like 5,000 fish. It was abundance. It was huge. Which goes back to this tales of abundance. Like — God's grace is not just like measly.

[38:46] It's not just like, you know, I see that in nature all the time. We have these huge oak trees, which man, a pain in the rear to, — you know, uh, keep raking all the leaves and all the acorns, but like it doesn't get five acorns. You need one acorn that works, but it gives you five billion acorns a year. You know, it's just God's abundance is huge. What what are the chances? So I was thinking about this from a little different standpoint than you guys are. Okay. So if we go back to these miracles, what's the chances that human beings or Jesus or whoever had abilities that we don't have today? And we just assume like we as humans think that we're like the greatest now, but as we have developed other skills, I don't think it's unreasonable that we have lost other skills and other things, you know, like let's take a simple one, telepathy. I I I got to believe once upon a time when humans before they had language, they could probably hunt and communicate with their minds in ways that we don't understand today. So what are the chances that there was just skill sets or things that people knew how to do that we've lost?

[39:54] — I I mean I definitely think that's true. And at the same time, does that mean, you know, I don't know where you're going with it, except that are miracles all explained because people had skills we don't have? No, I don't think so. I I mean, I don't think so. I — mean, it's a tough question, too, Randy. Like, what what are the chances that maybe this thing like nobody who's reasonable can say there is no chance? Like like like there is is there a chance that the sun won't come up tomorrow? No. Prove it. Like like there's some things that just like that's not a — I get it. But so so so the — but I just want to explore it here. — No, I get it. But I think so I think the chances are sure there's a chance but then like the to me what's the probability that Jesus was exactly who he says he was? Like it's like well the chances of him being exactly who he says he was once once you agree with scholars that Jesus was a person and alive and I think there's nobody credible that could tell you Jesus didn't exist like that there every credible scholar says Jesus exists. Then you're faced with a choice.

[40:56] And the choice you have to make at that point is either I believe that he was exactly who he says he was or he was the greatest con man in the history of the — I get I think you're I think you're trying to defend something that I'm not — No, no, I'm not defending it. I'm just saying like I think I think that if you're going to ask the chances question on the one side, the the other question that naturally I think naturally flows through is what's the probability and what's the probability on the other — Maybe I I just I Yeah, I'm really not attacking it in any way. I'm just I just am curious like I wanted I I think there's multiple things and I I just like having the conversation that — No, I mean I'm I totally get that. I'm just asking what's the probability what's the probability on the other side of it? That's what I'm asking back. — Well, and applying that to miracles, I think, you know, just talking out speaking out loud here is is um what is the probability of a miracle to have some other type of explanation? Probably very high that there's something else involved in the sense of like now science has developed to a point where we can understand certain aspects that obviously you know a thousand years ago or even 100 years ago or 10 years ago we couldn't understand understand. Now, does that mean that it was any less miraculous to the people who experienced it? I don't I don't think it changes that, you know? I mean, you could look at a miracle today and if you have zero faith, I think you're going to be extremely you're just not going to believe it, right?

[42:25] — Just like there's got to be another explanation if you have zero openness of — Science today thinks they're kind of getting to closer to a place where they can measure the soul with our measurement technology. That I don't think that makes a soul any less a soul if we can measure it, — right? I think both can be true, right? Like so I remember as a kid — there was a you know the the creationism versus Darwinism was this big fight and everybody had to be on one side or the — And I just remember asking my mom when I was pretty young. I'm like why can't both be true? — Like I don't understand why you can't have both things. Right. — And I just people get very rigid when it comes to — to religion I find. But — yeah, and and you know, back to the the conversations we've had before, maybe this would be helpful if just kind of my perspective looking at religion today. I remember a pretty famous podcast and they were interviewing I think they had a debate between an atheist, a Christian, you know, somebody from a from an Eastern religion and it was it was a it was a good debate. It was interesting. I just thought they should have gone further back in history. I you know when I when I went to Rome and studied the history of um religion really and there's so many topics I mean I spent you know seven years studying non-stop a masters to two you know bachelor degrees and um it was fascinating thinking back that before what what would the world look like without Christianity today we think of like today's world but just take Christianity away but to really answer that question. You have to look at the world before Christianity and actually even before Judaism. So I was shocked by this, but the the the world before Judaism was a world where retaliation was the name of the game. You know, this is a world where you kill my cousin, I kill seven of yours. This is an allout war, non-stop war. people's idea of religion was you know literally sacrificing their own children. So human sacrifice was was very much the norm around the world. Sacrificing their own children to build a new city so they would be blessed by the gods. So I think people were looking for God for for the divine but they didn't know how to do it. They were not doing it very well. It was a very, you know, the the ancient world was very um I don't know how, you know, evil. I mean, it was just like left to our own devices. We don't do very well. Judaism comes along. I mean, God reveals himself through um to the Jews, right? Uh to Abraham, etc. And you get to the law of Moses. And the law of Moses was an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. This was a huge improvement from 7 to one to one one. You scratch me, I scratch you. You kill my cousin, I kill one cousin. Like, that was a huge improvement. And people did not — I have I have no I studied a lot. I've never heard like I didn't I to me one for one was still pretty barbaric. And it's like, no, no, that was great. We just cut it down by 80%, 90%, whatever.

[45:35] — Yeah. Well, and and and not many people liked it. like they they they did not like and and there's been a lot of anti-Jewish sentiment for many centuries ever since that started, right? Um but then we get to Jesus. — Hold on. So there was anti-Jewish sentiment because they made it softer, gentler, kinder. — I I think because they were they were — Well, probably lots of different reasons. I I I don't know all the history of that. Let's fair Pandora's box to some degree. But but I think but I think people didn't I don't think people generally like it when you're changing the status quo is my point — you know, and and they're and they're saying like that's not that's not just that's not how we should be acting. And so Jesus comes along and in the famous story in the Bible, his uh his disciples, his followers ask him, hey, they're trying to be super generous and they go, oh, so it was 7 to1, then it was one one. He's like, should we forgive our enemies? You know how many times should we forgive our enemies?

[46:36] Seven times. Thinking, "Wow, this is the exact opposite. We're going." So, and Jesus says, "No, seven times 70." Seven times 70 times. Like, ever forever, always, right? The, you know, turn the other cheek. Go the extra mile, which again to me speaks of abundance. Like it's not abundance of goodness, you know? So the world without Christianity, without God's revelation at all, looks like that pre, you know, that ancient world, which was not at all what we would look at today with a post-Christian world where we have all the fruits of centuries of a mindset that is built on that fundamental understanding of goodness and abundance and and and helping others. Like the world wouldn't have any of that if it weren't for Christianity. just from a historical perspective. — That's a great way to take us to break. Uh we are going to go to the break listeners and when we come back we're going to ask I got some questions about giants. So we're we're going to get to giants after the break and we will be right back.

[47:42] — Hey, it's Randy from Tales of Abundance. Is starting a business part of your journey? Do you have ambition but no clear path? Maybe you feel trapped in your current career. Do you want a real business that can produce $250,000 or more income for you and your family? We have an opportunity for a profitable business that can be part of your path to abundance. I want to personally invite you to see the proven system we've built. It's designed to give you that freedom and control you've been searching for. Visit to learn more. That's premiumc Abundance. Why settle for less? We are still here with Kristian Jaloway and always is Dr. John Oberg. I've been talking about giants. So let me tell you how this came up. I first thing I remember as a kid like I grew up in the Lutheran church, not Catholic like you all. And David and Goliath and I pictured a giant that was, you know, I just thought it was a seven or eight foot tall person fighting a 5-ft tall David or whatever and didn't think that much about it.

[48:47] Well, Amazon recently had a TV show called Dave or House of David, — Okay. And I started watching it. It very good, by the way. I would recommend it to anybody. And all of a sudden, there's giants and there's sorcery around these giants and how they're created and a bunch of things we can get into. But the first thing, they're big. These aren't seven or eight foot tall. They're gigantic. So, how big were the giants? Let's just start there. I I actually read through this recently uh because I watched it as well and I went back to the Old Testament and I believe it said I should have brought the data but that they were 9 feet tall. Now again back to John's point from earlier does 9 ft um in the Bible mean the same thing as what we that that's obviously an interpretation. you know the the the Old Testament has been translated from whatever was written in originally Hebrew or some other language to Greek to Latin to English to you know so what was lost in that translation I I don't know um I'm not a biblical scholar in that sense but I so my guess is they were not as big as Amazon is depicting them to be um but still you know you say 5t tall I mean you go to uh look at these old churches of people buried in in churches around Europe, they're like four feet tall.

[50:06] — You know, and and the ancient Romans, I mean, I don't know, but I mean, you go to Pompei, I people were not very tall. So, somebody was 9 ft tall might be twice as tall as you. — 9 foot n by the way, according to the number of cubits in the Bible, potentially maybe. — So, so science, by the way, has found giant bones around the world. — Right? Like there's there's multiple places where they've dug up giant bones. I think in Asia in particular, right? Um so maybe it's a real thing, but also — well gi giantism I think is that what it's called? There's a medical condition where um people get really big usually. I think they get very weak too, but there's another one I saw recently where they do um they have all the right proportions, all the same, you know, relative strength. Um — I think Andre the Giant had something like that if I'm not mistaken, but he was seven, seven and a half feet tall. — I thought he was 8t tall. I'm going to check that one, too. — Um, okay. Well, even deeper than how tall and how big are these giants and do they exist? They were the they were the offspring of a angel and a human woman in this show. Is that also is that consistent with the Bible? I assume it — Uh, no. I don't I don't think the Bible makes that clear because I know there's debate about that. Um, and there are what we would call apocryphal books. So that were not included in the canon, the official Bible. Um that talk about that more. I I don't think in the Bible for my reading that it said exactly their so you know that I mean going back to my philosophical or just biological I I don't um I don't think you would be able to have an offspring from an angel and a — I mean not unless they're the same species, right? That's the whole Right.

[51:56] The whole point is they're different — well, but if humans are made in God's image and angels are in God's image, and then I I don't know. I'm I'm I'm — biologically you have to have two two, you know, a male and female of the same species to procreate, right? Um so even even the virgin birth, like it was clearly said that it was God was the God was the father. So that was a miraculous intervention, not a not the angel Gabriel coming to impregnate Mary. Couple more just fact checks as we go. So, uh, Andre the Giant somewhere between 6'11 and 74. Tallest human on record right now. Robert Persing Wadllo born 1918 was 8t 11 in tall. — Wow. Almost 9 ft. Yeah, that is. Yeah, that's tall. All right. So, Samuel is a key character in here — and he is uh he's doing a lot of magic, — curses and magic. So let's talk about that. Tell me about that. — Yeah. So magic is um definitely real. I think the you know again I think well my perspective would be and I think this is consistent with the Christian perspective is that magic is either all magic is um not magic is from the evil side. like there there isn't white magic as far as I can as far as I can see. There's either miraculous things where you are praying or asking for intervention and help from the divine which is um not what I would call magic. And then there's magic where it is um you know actual um intervention from evil angels basically right the devil kind of stuff.

[53:43] I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of that out there. I mean there is Satanism as a religion. there's a lot of selling your soul to make, you know, financial gain and those kinds of things out there. So, um, you know, my boys, it's funny when they when they look at any magic show, whether it's, uh, whatever it is, they're like, it's not magic, it's science, right? Because because magic, that's the other kind of magic. So, slight of hand and all those kinds of quote magic. It's not really truly magic. It's it's we know it's fake and it's not a because I've heard Christian ma magicians talk about this and they're like I I perform my trade my trade craft and people know that I'm faking them and it's fun, right? That's a different — illusions, right? Like that's that would be illusions that people are having. — People starting to get freaked out when they're like this is actual magic, right? And and that's part of the fun, too. But but there is a fine line there, I think. And then the the red line is like, okay, this is actual magic. Um which I do think exists. I mean, I frankly also think ghosts exist as far as like souls of people who have died. Now, do they do all the things in movies? I mean, that's maybe a whole another question.

[54:49] — So, I think Sam Samuel in the show House of David, I think it's So, to your point, it's not magic like Merlin or what we think of Harry Potter or whatever. It's he's channeling God is what is that? I I think I think his I mean the story from the Bible's perspective is he was following God and he was receiving grace from a god and then he gradually got off the right track and um probably was using more sorcery and evil magic and and and kind of selling his soul to stay in power. Um I I think that's where where the story goes and I think they do a pretty good job of portraying that in the in there as well. And so his son was trying to, again, this is according to to the show, but you know, was trying to keep him on the track of God and and being faithful to God. — Wait, are you talking about Samuel or — Samuel. Samuel. — Okay. Yeah. Yeah. — Okay. All right. Um, let's talk about books that So, the Bible has the books that were picked, right, by a group of cardinals, if I'm not mistaken.

[55:53] — Well, it's the it was Yeah. the the early Christians, right? The descend the apostles and their and their and their successors. So yeah, interestingly, so we call that the canon. So the canon is the official book of um or collection of books that make up the today's Bible. And the Jews actually had lots of writings. There were there were writings circulating. There were letters back and forth. There were the official books of the Torah. Well, again, they weren't official before Christians. So when Christ came, he died, he rose, he he left, he he, you know, ascended into heaven. He's gone. And the apostles get together and say, "Hey, we've got to figure out which which of all these writings because they had many writings, too." Their apostles were writing different churches and different people and it was all kind of a big collection. They're like, "What of this is actually um what of this do we actually believe? What's consistent with Jesus's life because we need to put some order in this?" And so they sit down and say, "What is the going to go in here and what's not?" And once they did that and closed what we call the New Testament, now that collection of books, then the Jews said, the Jewish um rabbis said, "We need to do the same thing because people are asking us now, well, what what's your official collection?" Then they went and did the same thing. And so there's a small discrepancy between what the Christians say are the official books of the Old Testament and what the Jews do today. Um but that that that was based on you know what's consistent with what we know and experience because they were firsthand witnesses uh many of them or um uh or knew the apostles themselves. They were either you know knew Jesus or knew the apostles who did know him and um and then what's consistent theologically. So what's consistent with our experience? What's consistent theologically? And what do all the Christians around that the world at that point agree with? So it was a very in that sense kind of democratic process and then there were other books that were written that either weren't consistent theologically weren't wellknown and not everybody agreed with and so they said no those are those are not in of course they prayed too and I think that's the that's the key point in really discerning okay what is what is the Holy Spirit inspiring us to um in this process to put in here — why this gets so messy I just I think about this in today's world Right. And maybe this is me projecting 2025 on onto these people, but you know, in today, you can't get people to agree on almost anything, right? And somehow politics — horse trading and and I I get it. It's supposed to be the word of God, but man, it just makes me wonder what concessions were made or what deals or what, you know, have you have you read any of these books or did you study them when you were in seminary or — I mean, we read the whole Bible and studied all the books of the Bible and then but I'm talking the ones that — Yeah. The apocryphal they're called. So, I read some of them or I'd look them up.

[58:49] I mean, the book of Enoch is one uh that is that is pretty common and others and and they come and go. There's a whole kind of uh group of writings called new age that are more based on what we call gnosticism. So the so the idea that um there was something kind of missing and there's a secret thing you need to know and if you swallow the right pill you know you'll you'll get the secret knowledge that will free you and save you. You know a lot of the modern movies um Star Wars and um uh other movies like that that the um Matrix and things are kind of based on that. You can see it underline their philosophy in those — What book, what book was that in? — Um, so the the I'd have to go through and look at, but if you looked at apocryphal books or gnostic books, — the Gnostic books were the Gospel of Philip, the Gospel of Judas, and there were some others called uh apocryphal gospels, the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary, and the Infancy Gospel of James or the pro provangel of James. — It is checking out AI. So — yeah, it is it is interesting that that long you know we say again that long ago but you said it earlier like we we kind of treat them like they didn't know anything and we know everything but but they it's been consistent over 2,000 years like those books have not I mean there was one challenge with Martin Luther that was the biggest challenge but for 1500 years there were zero challenges to those books and those decisions um and then even the challenges that Martin Luther brought out have been largely understood and overcome since then, right? Not everybody agrees with it obviously, but — So, were there books that Martin Luther said should be in the Bible that Protestants have?

[1:00:31] — No, he took out a couple of books. He took out the books of Makabe, most not. And you could look that up too to be sure, but um they were the latest they were the later books. Um and there was also there were also a couple of books. And so there's a small difference between the um Protestant version of the Bible today and the Catholic version of the Bible today. Um, — hold on, hold on, hold on. I did not know this. So, Book of Mabe. I've never heard of this. The Catholic. — Yeah, you're Lutheran. — The Catholic Bible has a book called — Yep. First Makabe and Second Makabe, which was um leading up to the Romans. There were um family a family called the Mcabes who resisted um the the the Romans. And I I believe I'd have to go back and study a little bit more here. — Wow. Um but but it but it was very it was very clear also that that was um I might be crossing my wires a little bit. Makabe was also leading very much up to the story of Jesus. And so the Jew that's definitely not in the Jewish Old Testament. Um the John, if you're factchecking, let me know. But the the New Testament one that Martin Luther took out was, I believe, the letter of — Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation were the ones he struggled with.

[1:01:51] — Okay. Yeah. Yeah. — Well, Revelation's in there for sure. So, he left some, but I had I had no idea Catholics and Protestants had a different Bible. — Yeah. It's it's it's not it's not very different, but it is different. And obviously, there's different translations, but um — Okay. So again, I don't know anything about this other than what I for all this is secondhand. So just just take us but I hear some a lot of the books that were considered but not added — some of them believe in reincarnation is one of the things I know if the I forget what the thing is but the the Da Vinci Code and one of those books in that series talks a lot about Mary Magdalene and her being much more a central part in Jesus's life and you know even I think one of the books even says they were married. — The Gospel of Mary Magdalene was one of the books that came up. — Yeah. So, right — what like — I don't know. I mean, what do we know about that? I mean, what what's the chances of I mean, how many of these books talked about reincarnation? That's probably the one that's most interesting to me.

[1:02:54] — Yeah. That the again the Christian perspective is reincarnation doesn't happen. It's it's um you know there there's a in general there's a the philos eastern philosophy is much more circular and so this idea of of birth death you know regeneration reincarnation is is very eastern is very is very common um it's very much western this idea of you know progressivism happens in the west I mean this idea that history is linear and there's a direction there's a beginning point and there's an end point and we're we're making progress is very much a western kind of idea. And so, you know, that's where the Christian idea of of we're going somewhere and we're making progress is is based on that, I think. Um, what did you find something there, — No, I was just trying to keep up with you guys. There's so much I'm a I'm a noob when it comes to like this type of this type of theology. So — So, all right. You mentioned the book of Enoch and that's one of the things I had in my notes I wanted to ask about the book of Enoch and I did a little bit of research on this cuz again I didn't know much but first is it agreed that it was written by Moses's great-grandfather. Is that agreed? I think it identifies him as as um yeah, Enoch is the great-grandfather of Moses who was a descendant obviously of Noah, but um it was it wasn't considered divinely inspired by the early church. Um for some of those reasons I gave earlier, right? It was written centuries after the biblical Enoch lived apparently. Um not everybody agreed it was, you know, part of the story. And um and then I think the biggest thing that now people identify is again the angels mating with humans didn't seem — Ah we're back to we're back to angels mating with with humans and giants.

[1:04:48] — Right. Right. Um so you know and you said what it it is very fascinating to think like what is the political uh what were the political conversations going on at the time and all of those things. I I don't think that I don't think that these decisions were being influenced by politics on the on the global scale as far as the Romans go and all that like this was for the Romans this was like they didn't have this on their radar at all. I mean the the Christians had zero influence on any level politically at this point. They weren't even they probably weren't even being persecuted yet. um they it was very much a just part of the the the Jewish it was a Jewish sect according to the Romans it for for many many years in the beginning. Um but obviously people always have politics, you know, and I'm sure between the apostles there's politics. I think the chosen does a great job of showing the humanity of them and and all of that. So anyways, we're getting maybe off the topic, but but the fact that it was left out was it just wasn't it wasn't um seen as an integral part of the faith. Um which by the way is a really important question too when it comes to difference between Christian or Catholics and and Protestants is the Bible wasn't given to us just drop from heaven. It it had a messy process of people writing things and was it inspired, was it not inspired and and how did how did they decide and all that stuff like so first we had the church then the church gave us the Bible essentially right which means there was already an interpretation happening there was an understanding interpretation explanation happening and then they took that which we call tradition with a large T there's the little traditions like you know you use holy water or this or that that um but but the big tradition is what is consistent with the life of Jesus, what has consistently been passed down over the generations and a lot of these things just aren't consistent with that and so they were they were left out. Is is that possible? Like some some of them could be possible but again that doesn't mean that it's it wasn't seen as um consistent enough to keep it in. And and I should reiterate that just human error doesn't impact God's will or God or religion in my mind, right? Like it's okay if humans made mistakes and — have different opinions, right? Like I just I I — you you have more faith than a lot of Catholics and saying that frankly like I think I think a lot of people struggle with that in the church too. I'm just saying. Right.

[1:07:21] — If you want like if you want proof there's a God like how about a 2,000y old institution run the way we run the Catholic Church. — Yeah. I mean that's I mean there's there's a I mean — there's there's a famous uh story of um who was it uh Napoleon who told one of the cardinals I'm going to destroy the Catholic Church and the cardinals just laughed at them and said you know we cardinals have been trying to do it for 2,000 years had it succeeded so I don't think you're going to be able to either. So, one of the things when I was doing research and again I don't know much about the book of Enoch, but the little bit I read about it was that a lot of the things and you and I have talked about before I've talked about sometimes like how does psychedelics work with or doesn't work with the Bible and meditation and some of the other things and in the research part of the reason that was the one I picked is a lot of what I read it aligned very like there's definitely talk of psychedelics and meditation and that being a way to talk to God and have those — Did you get Did you get speaking in tongues on there? — That's It was on the list. I skipped over it because I figured we had enough — Yeah. But speaking we could, — by the way, I know people speak in — I saw when I saw it the first time, I was I didn't know what to think.

[1:08:33] — I just didn't. — Yeah. It's pretty It's pretty weird, especially for a westerner, I think, in general. It it's it's uh there's been a movement over the last I don't know what 30 50 years called the charismatic movement that that kind of was reborn. And so this whole trust in the Holy Spirit, but back back to your question, what what were you um — this might be taking us off — like again the book of Enoch is it talks about psychedelics and talking find you know that's a way to God. It talks about meditation. It talk I mean in the research again this is AI not me firsthand but it talks about some of those things like and — I get the feeling the church would frown upon that conversation. Yes, the the church certainly frowns upon anything that is taking you out of your uh ability to make rational decisions. Um so that being said, the you know I I we're here with a a doctor who has a medical practice, — not a physician. — Correct. But but but like — I think I think the world's understanding now is gradually changing of what's medicine and what's not. And so the church says, "Yeah, you can use any medicine. You just can't use, you know, hallucinogenics. You can't you can't you can't alter your psychic state." Um, however, unless it's for medical reasons. So, I I I struggle with this, not in the sense of like I I don't, you know, is that a path, again, back to the first question, is that a pathway that could open people up? It definitely seems to open people up to the divine. and and maybe it's just because they're getting rid of barriers, psychic barriers or just issues they've had much like therapy would do or something else, I to me it opened me up like a lot of what you guys have said might change that's that's a 100% where it's come or not 100 but mostly where it's come from and I've watched multiple people that it's made them — more religious more spiritual but many of them more Christian right and I I find it interesting — how did what did you say that it it's something about it not being able to change the mind or control the mind how did you what did you say — well the that that the church would frown on something that that makes you lose control of your mind and and at the same time I think in these experiences people say that it it didn't um — well you you you tell us your experience but it would be like you you need to let go enough you need to let go of your experiences and this is just good leadership like you have to be able to get outside of your perspective enough to see a different perspective. Yeah, I have I have a couple perspectives on that. One, the people saying that almost guaranteed have never done it. So, they actually don't know what they're talking about. But two, you don't lose control of your mind. You your mind becomes much more open and receptive. And in my experience, I am talking to God. Now whether that's energy, the universe, the star, I mean I I think of God a little different than a guy with a beard and a robe and a chair, right? But I think we're talking about I I'm really convinced we're talking about the same God, right? The one that you experienced doing Iawasa as somebody that's praying.

[1:11:49] I think it's the exact same thing. And I almost look at it as a cheat code to talk to God and actually to listen it. God tells you what to do. That's my experience with it is that God is very directly, hey dumbass, this is what you're supposed if you just listen to me, life would be a lot easier and this is what you should do. — Kind of back to is your is it possible question, right? Like is it possible that what you've experienced and know the rest of the world hasn't caught up to yet? And you're like, "Hey, we have this way of healing injury that we can't even fully comprehend the injury with our current science today. And 100 years from now, we're going to have ways of measuring that injury in the same way we use an X-ray to look at a broken bone. And now we know how to better set that industry." And and we're talking about neuroplasticity and you know psych psychological injury and and you know so is it you know is it poss like now we're back to that is it possible like that to — like that sounds pretty plausible that we just don't understand that part of neuroplasticity yet and just how we had people that were you know testing drugs on themselves as doctors 200 years ago in probably not the safest of ways in ways we wouldn't do it today. Maybe they knew a few things we didn't know. And I tell people all the time like there's things we know in Western medicine that are really well validated evidence-based medicine and there's like 3,000 years of, you know, Chinese and and Eastern medicine that we may not have like evidence-based approaches that are, you know, validated by the FDA, but anecdotally like they make sense to, you know, perhaps consider some of those things. I I think there's now we're back to that same kind of is it plausible?

[1:13:27] And by the way, it may sound harsh what I said about they don't know, but we should give the church some grace because we have politicians in this country that have made these same things illegal who also didn't try them, right? Like the people that try them aren't the people making them illegal. It's the people that haven't tried them and think and they they spread stuff, right? So again, that's a human — well and the church has been responsible for some of the greatest scientific advances in in modern history, right? Like I think so I think that where the church you know in your mind might be shortsighted in one way I think it's also even handed to say it's also been some of the greatest advances in medicine education banking or agriculture like have come from the church too and so but there are time at every point in history we have more to learn like at every point in history you've said this before to me like like it's it's definitively we aren't done learning definitively science is going to expand definitively what we know today we're going to know is wrong — Yeah. And and there's definitely been things that the church has said were were wrong that now have changed. So one used to be every Catholic every Friday had to abstain from meat and could only eat fish. Um that rule changed. So there are certain things that can never change because they're they're they're spelled out very clearly in the gospel in the early tradition of the church that can never change. Um there's other things that change over time because our understanding of the science behind it changes. Right? Thomas Aquinas who is famous med medieval theologian and one of the most renowned in the Catholic church thought that abortion up to a certain age was was feasible because his understanding of the science of the fetus was very rudimentary and they didn't think it was an actual viable um baby at that point and and the science has changed and the church's understanding has changed I know that's touchy topic sorry but um but but there's lots of other examples of that — well may maybe a less touchy topic pork right isn't pork you're supposed to avoid in the Old Testament and now it's open. But I would assume that's because of health. Like I it's it's almost like to help people because back then pork I think was messy and people got disease — and whatever. I that — Yeah. Yeah. The same the same with like the um now there's a debate cuz I I have three boys. So anyways, I won't get into what my decision was, but there's a debate on should you um circumcise boys today. I we found out um that actually the majority of people are not circumcising their boys today. Um it's also interesting that circumcision in the US became popular because of Vietnam War because soldiers were going through the jungles and and and you know infested waters and getting all kinds of infections. And so the circumcision we we perform today on most boys or a lot of boys I guess is is not at all the Jewish circumcision. Here you cut off a significant part, the the whole foreskin, right? Jewish circumcision was a tiny slice off just the very tip of the foreskin really. And it was ritual circumcision. It had no medical purpose.

[1:16:23] It was simply um a sign of giving your your life to God, right? — And so yeah, it's funny when you study the history behind these things. And so the church's understanding of many things has changed and and so what they teach is um is the right way to do it changes with those understandings too which doesn't mean you change the fundamental beliefs right — but how they apply in different things like should you use a toilet well before toilets I mean we there was no teaching you know — so okay I want — does the church have a teaching on — I don't think so We're talking live. — I was worried I was doing it wrong. — I don't think so. — All right, we'll stick All right, sticking with psychedelics. There is I had always heard there's this pineal gland which in psychedelics is the third eye and is is something that you know DMT reacts with, etc. But again, I researched this coming in to just confirm that. But there is a 13 foot pine cone statue outside the Vatican Vatican representing the pineal gland, right? Um, take that and there is a theory out there. I don't know if this is true, but there's a theory that Moses and the burning bush is, and again, I did some research on this, but originated with Benny Shannon of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, that it that the bush was an acacia bush and Syrian rue together, which were very common in that part of the world. And acacia bush is full of And it works like if you take those two things and you put them together, it works almost exactly like Iawaska. It's basically that versions of the world.

[1:18:07] — It would like fire smoking. It would be the same thing like a burning bush would be a — So the burning bush is the acacia bush which releases the DMT just like the vine in the jungle has DMT for iawaska. Then I don't know I don't know enough about it but the awaska is mixed with some other thing to make to inhibit make these inhibitors and that Syrian — um I mean what do you say to that like — yeah the I mean again the historical place most of the things all the things by the way in the in the um Vatican museums which there's many have been donated um you know from some some some somebody over the centuries and so that one particularly ly was an ancient Roman bronze fountain from the first or second century. Um, so I think what's happening, again, this is most likely what's happening is we're starting we're we're understanding that uh what what it represented then for the Romans was one thing. what we're looking at it we're looking at now from different eyes with these understandings of the pineal gland and other things that I don't I don't know what they thought of in that sense but I don't think they for for them it was a symbol of fertility right usually because it's the again the pine cone the abundant pine cones in my front yard that I have to get rid of every year um so I I hesitate to say that that's the true meaning originally of it could I mean does it mean that for some people yeah Um, it's also a symbol like there's a lot of things in the Vatican in the Vatican museums that are very secular.

[1:19:42] You could say they're not. And I think that's also over over the centuries there's been debate about this. But the answer basically of the church has been we're not afraid of anything quote secular because if it's true, it's true. If it's beautiful, it's beautiful. You know, people complain that Michelangelo is painting nude people on the Sistine Chapel. They're like, "Well, you need to learn how to, you know, see them as beautiful because that's how God made us, you know." So, um that that's kind of my general attitude to the towards that. I I don't know that. Um yeah, I think going too far to kind of reinterpret things gets us into trouble a lot of times. — All right, fair enough. I didn't I didn't expect you to go go full pull in on that one, but I had to ask anyway. Um, so it is pretty cool though that like aaca DM like that whole part of it like just as you start to put like I think it's cool to think about like what some of the connections I remember in middle school we like thought about like what an atom looked like and then what the universe looked like and like that was our big like and I think probably most kids at that age are starting to but that I mean these are things we haven't thought about but it's like huh — yeah I mean and again it could it could be I just think it's interesting to explore right like he went up there's a burning bush Well, what if what if he was tripping balls because of that bush and then he comes down with the Ten Commandments, right? I mean, well, — John, if the next Yeah, — if it's a I haven't done DMT other than through Iaska, but if you're if you're if you're if you're tripping balls.

[1:21:12] — One thing I really respect about you, Randy, I I'll I'll put this out here is like you are very curious and I do think um like one thing is the canon and and the and the official teaching, the catechism, all those things which are great and and very helpful and very needed and give a lot of direction, orientation. All that being said, like every person has their own individual unique journey uh through life and and towards the divine and whatever the next life is going to look like. Exactly. None of us have been there and come back to say it. So we don't really know. Um, so just being able to express it and like unabashedly ex share your own experience I think is really cool and and I wish more people had that openness and curiosity to to one explore and look for ways to towards the divine and two to talk about them and share them with others because there's nothing wrong with that. — Yeah. And I got to tell you some of the things I've seen in these IASA journeys I will I'll just quickly tell you two of them. one of them. The first time I did it, it there were 40 people there and I'm just I'm a long ways away. There's walls in the middle. And the first night, this woman who I don't know, I just hear this woman crying, screaming.

[1:22:25] You could just tell she was in utter agony, right? Like just the sickest, like somebody's being murdered or chopped up. Like she was really going through through it. And I'm — She wasn't being murdered or chopped up. three rooms away up some stairs through a wall like have no idea who this is. And I just remember just thinking, — "Oh god, I'm in my journey, but this woman needs help." And just sending her like love and energy and good energy across the house, right? Didn't think anything of it. Next day, everybody's sharing and she goes, "And I want to thank Randy." And I'm like, "Who?" I hadn't talked to this woman. I didn't know her name, right? But I had went and she'd heard my name. And she goes, "Man, when I was in the middle," and she was talking about her experience, and I don't want to share what that was, but it was horrific. I — and her experience. Yeah. — It was really horrific. And she goes, "Man, I just I like I just needed all the support and help I could get, and he like sent me this energy and this love, and it just it like got me through it, — right? Like I can't explain that as you can call it magic, you can call it energy. I I don't know what to call it, but that was something I experienced and I I can't explain it, right? And that's not something I don't maybe we can do that not tripping balls or whatever, but there was that. And another time there was this woman and she said that some point she was sitting on Jesus's lap and she was just in she was just so grateful and everything was great and all this hope and she just started taking stardust and throwing it all over the place and just making this beautiful light show, right? And she went into great detail like six other people that were in the room go, "Oh, that was you." They're like, "Was that right around like midnight?" And they were like, "Yeah."

[1:24:19] And like six other people saw this like the stardust when she did it. — Cool. I gave you fireworks. — And like those are things that I don't know when you experience there's something there. I'm not — Maybe it's internal. Maybe I I don't know. Maybe this goes back to what we were talking about earlier with are there abilities that we've lost touch with or we don't know how to access — Yeah. And — I I definitely think there are I mean I I think it's a little sad when you see people, you know, going to church and they're kind of going through the motions, but they're not joyful. They're not they're not free. I think this is one thing that Martin Luther brought into the church in a way is like we need to have this freedom of the spirit. And you know, you asked too about the Holy Spirit. I think that's the thing that's come back. we said through the charismatic movement that is that is actually really really important like this ability just to go and you see this in like praise and worship and people are you know swaying and moving and and feeling the beat and you know the African church and and is way better at this than we are in in the western and the US and the super you know you know — black churches have fun — yeah yeah the gospel music like that's an important part of it you know people just moving and dancing moving their bodies and like people are understanding that more and more I think so if if we need IASA to do that um obviously you know you'd have a lot of people very nervous about that but we need more of that kind of thing to be able to kind of free up our spirit and really find find pathways to the divine that um sometimes just we we're we're kind of stuck.

[1:25:59] — Let's I I have a question like Jesus did a lot of healing. — Okay. Again we're back to the miracles here, right? Um, but there's people now that do they, you know, the energy healing with their hands and different things. I mean, is it that was it Mary? Again, we're I'm kind of asking the same question in in a different thing. But, but what do we what do we think that — There's lots of healing now. I mean, still going on. Maybe maybe in different parts of the world. Um, maybe in in certain sectors of the church. Um, and there is a very legitimate healing ministry happening in the Catholic world, in the Christian world. You're talking about raiki though, right? Like like you're you're — there's multiple versions I think. John, — but you're talking about not the Catholic version. You were I think were you asking about the healing that people do like — just make sure is your question about — any just people like using energy like like some people I've had people do it on me. I don't know if it worked or not but you can definitely feel energy and heat in their hands when they do it right. Like it's kind of a weird — I don't know. there. So, so you know part of it is like there the the the human person is a is is body and soul right and we have we have various parts and so the um you know I remember a group of Catholic doctors when I was a young seminarian who came to this retreat in the seminary and and I asked them this question like what's the connection between the spirit you know the soul the spirit and the body and they're like we're medical doctors that's up to you to figure out I was like really — um so I I don't you like we that's very mysterious frontier and and how can can you heal somebody you know physically or spiritually um I don't know one example is like give somebody a hug I mean it's a physical gesture but it heals your heart you know so um you know I I do think there's there's types of healing that I would be very leerary of or or or kind of very a little skeptical of um for sure but there's other types of healing that are um you know very very legitimate and and you And you know the fruits by their you know the tree by its fruits, right? Is a biblical saying. And so um that's a that's an area that I think the church is understanding on a broader sense today than it did in the last let's say 50 or 100 years.

[1:28:14] — I have more questions, but we're running out of time. So I'm going to I just I want to end with the Holy Spirit a little bit. — We can bring him back too. Fascinating. — We could definitely bring him back. Um, the Holy Spirit is something I don't do Catholics I don't know how much the Cath So in the Lutheran church Yeah. in the Lutheran church, right? The father, the son, the holy spirit, right? I heard this a zillion times as a kid and I never had any clue what the holy spirit was. Like I just it went completely over my head. Now I also think this again doing plant medicine got a I think I understand it now and I've even heard Bible verses since then and I'm like, "Oh, I get it." Like this makes perfect sense. But how would you define the Holy — I mean, well, okay, there's the theological explanation, but the simple is it's it's the love the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity is the is the kind of the official thing, but it's the it's the love between the father and the son. So, it is it is so real um that it is a third person. I mean, outside of the Bible, like we wouldn't have a direct understanding of the Holy Spirit. It was only Jesus came and told us about the Holy Spirit and talked about it that we kind of understood that.

[1:29:22] — Is it is it energy? Is that what I mean? I mean I I view it almost as energy. — No, it's it's it's God, but it's but the Holy Spirit is presented in different symbols, right? Whether it's a dove or the tongues of fire, which actually is very interesting like it's heat like you talked about earlier, right? Uh the Holy Spirit is presented as what are the other symbols? Um um fire, holy spirit, wind is the other one. Rua, which is spirit. The word spirit is it means wind um in Hebrew I believe. So I it he quote he or the holy spirit is the hardest part of the trinity to understand like this is the biggest mystery in Christianity is is the trinity. So here we're touching like you know does anybody understand it? No. H I I thought of it more as energy is kind of what I thought of it is. — Yeah. I think I I think um you know on one hand you could go down a rabbit trail here with like kind of the new age understanding of what energy is and all those things but going back to like the fact that if if God created everything then is the Holy Spirit you know even even the Greeks said this like they didn't know who God was but they said there's the unmoved mover and that unmoved mover is love so which is very consistent with Christian theology now of God is love.

[1:30:45] So the Holy Spirit is another expression of God's love and helps us in different ways. And is it a he or a she or an it? It's it's presented different ways in different it has all those um manifestations but but it's a um I think overall it shows us this is my this is what I get out of it is is God is not just a monad. He's not just a a a God is a family essentially. God is a community in in himself in in God itself and and that's something beautiful because you know love can't exist between just you and — Like you have to have a community. It's it's going back to abundance frankly is like that that means there is a generation producing effect of God himself and his love is like expansive and growing and the Holy Spirit I think is a symbol of that or not just a symbol reality of that. — Dove, fire, wind or breath, water, oil and a seal. Yeah, there you go. A seal. — A seal. — A seal. A seal not as in like is like the animal as a seal as in like the seal I think that you would put like a wax seal on an envelope or something like a a symbol.

[1:31:52] — Ownership or authenticity. — Yeah. Advocate is another one, right? Which is like lawyer. In other words, he intercedes for us on our behalf. so de definitely hard though. Like I I've had I remember my mom at one point she's like I found the Holy Spirit. I'm like, "Well, finally you've been Catholic your whole life." And she pulled out this holy card that she had found. I don't even remember what it was. She's like, "Yeah, I never liked like the dove. I never like this other one. I forgot what the picture was of. I'll have to go ask her, but it's like for me now this is the like my image of the Holy Spirit." I was like, "Good. I Yeah. Okay. I think not not theologically sound maybe by some people's standards, but the book The Shack was a really great way to help me as a very young believer in my journey understand like ways to relate to the different facets of the Trinity. Thought that was pretty cool. — Yeah. And in my prep my prep for this, by the way, I did I did see that it the Holy Spirit is referred to as she or the divine mother is a common thing, which I had no clue. I didn't know that till some of the prep which by the way again aligns very well with Iawaska is referred to as like a grandmother and a feminine energy. So that I don't know what that means but — um okay last question is in part of this Holy Spirit thing do other religions have the Holy Spirit?

[1:33:11] Is this something is it in Buddhism, Hinduism etc etc Muslims? I mean, do other people have this and or is it something that you can find through prayer, meditation, even yoga? Like what or is this just a Christian thing? — Well, okay. As the understanding of a trinity of of God as a trinity, I don't think it exists outside of Christianity. I don't even think the Jews understood God in that sense. That was specifically Jesus who brought that revelation and and the Christian believers. Um, however, as a I guess reality you could say of like an experience of something moving you of again the wind, the spirit, the something there that is kind of drawing you and and inspiring you and and sometimes protecting you. I think lots of people have that general experience and you know um and so back to you know God can reach you through any means like God God if if God is who he says he is if he's an infinite being who loves us infinitely like he's going to stop at no means to get to us and give us all the opportunities to to get to know him. So what does that look like? Well, he's going to reach us wherever we're at in whatever means he needs. And and I think in that sense like the Holy Spirit is going to be is going to have an influence in like calling each of our hearts just wherever we're at in whatever way works for us.

[1:34:41] So is that Iawaska? Could definitely be. You know, is he reaching you through a crisis moment? Could be. You know, I've I've experienced God there, too. I've experienced God in beautiful moments and in nature and in all these different ways, you know. Um I think ultimately this was what one of the one of the great revelations of my studies in Rome was you know the heart of religion they said is this sense of awe just like whoa like you go into maybe it's a beautiful cathedral or maybe you go into the woods or maybe it's again you're you're you're tripping you know — tripping ball — it's like whoa — can you tell that I haven't done that you know — but it's that but the sense of awe is like It's it's it's it's it's us in front of the divine saying, "Wow." I mean, back to the I bringing it back to Giants like that's amazing. You know, I couldn't or maybe it's a basketball dunk that, you know, is amazing. I mean, that's probably kind It sounds like you're making religion kind of a banal thing that some people might not like, but ultimately God's going to reach us wherever he can.

[1:35:53] It's a great place to end. I think Christian, thank you so much. Um, this has been fantastic. I know I greatly enjoyed it. John, I appreciate you letting me ask my weird I thought they were Randy questions, — dude. I thought they were great qu like I and once more I want to get into like free free will and all the other topics. Like this is great. This is great. — I'm glad I did some research. Thanks for sending me the questions. — Yeah, I did I did go I did go a little off the rails with some of these, so I I wanted to make sure that I wasn't too far off with them. So, um, Kristian, thank you very much. Listeners, as always, thank you for listening. You make the show. Uh, download, subscribe, tell your friends, tell your family, go to the website for tools, and, uh, just keep coming back and, uh, just just keep listening. Thank you so much. — There'll be an abundance of content. — There we go. — All right, — dad joke. Listen and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Click follow for more content like this, or go to talesofabundance.com to join our community and get free tools.

Exploring Faith, Miracles, Giants, and Psychedelics: A Candid Conversation with a Former Catholic Priest