What Is Happiness? Joy, Gratitude and Purpose

Show notes

What Is Happiness? Gratitude, Purpose and the Myth of Feeling Good All the Time

What is happiness, and is it the same thing as joy? Randy Lorensen, Dr. John Oberg and Anthony Marino find out that even defining it is harder than it sounds.

John draws a line between joy, which he sees as a choice you can make even in suffering, and happiness, which comes from a life well lived. Anthony goes back to what the Founding Fathers meant by "the pursuit of happiness": a virtuous, meaningful life rather than a feeling.

From there, they talk about how much of our mood is out of our control, why happy moments are different from feeling settled, and why people who retire without a purpose can struggle. They share stories, including former guest Andrew Tull's joy in serving others.

In the second half, they get practical: walking your own path, gratitude with age, whether happiness looks different in other countries and the Blue Zones, why some very wealthy people are miserable, and why everyone's answer is a little different.

Joy vs Happiness, the Pursuit of Happiness, and What True Happiness Looks Like

What you'll discover:

Joy vs happiness: one is a choice, the other an outcome
What the Founding Fathers meant by the pursuit of happiness
Why happiness isn't being in a good mood all the time
Purpose, work and the trap of retiring with nothing to do
Lessons from other countries and the Blue Zones on community and faith
"You're only as happy as your unhappiest child", and why rich people can be miserable

Timestamps

[00:00] Welcome: Randy, John and Anthony dig into happiness
[00:49] What is happiness? Joy as a choice and happiness as an outcome
[02:16] What the Founding Fathers meant by "the pursuit of happiness"
[04:41] Two different conversations: joy in suffering and the good life
[05:40] Dopamine hits versus delayed gratification
[06:25] Chili with beans: what listeners think happiness means
[07:55] When were you happiest over a long stretch of your life?
[09:36] Separating what you choose from what results
[13:01] How much of your mood is out of your control?
[14:21] Happiness isn't being in a good mood all the time
[15:16] Work, retirement and the need for purpose
[16:07] Holding on to happiness: the trip home after a great vacation
[17:00] Kids, travel mishaps, and choosing to make the best of it
[19:18] The end-of-vacation feeling, and happy moments versus being settled
[20:58] Does happiness come from within?
[22:34] Andrew Tull: settled, joyful, and on mission
[24:11] Why even successful people get unsettled
[25:51] Life is an orchestra: the people around you
[27:39] Mission, contribution and faith
[28:17] Choosing your inner circle, and people who are born or luck into it
[29:03] Different paths: the surfer and the homeless man
[31:32] Sponsor break: Premium Cabinets
[32:24] Tools and tips for being happier: walking your own path
[34:00] People who live their purpose without naming it
[35:30] Teenagers, age, and gratitude
[38:59] The keys to finding happiness: genetics, family and being "born on third base"
[40:21] Is happiness different in other countries?
[41:51] Faith, community and the Blue Zones
[43:40] Needs met without high expectations
[44:29] "You're only as happy as your unhappiest child"
[45:16] Wealthy and miserable: high achievers and comparison
[46:50] Societal norms, Europe and Central America
[47:37] Selfishness and putting family second
[48:26] Identity, work and measuring the wrong things
[49:28] Made to work and made for community
[50:08] Everyone's answer is different, and it's not hopeless
[50:55] Wrap-up

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About the hosts

This is a hosts-only episode with no guest: Randy Lorensen, Dr. John Oberg and Anthony Marino. (Host bios are on the host pages linked below.)

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Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:02] into happiness. In my opinion, happiness is a big part of why we even want to explore abundance in the first place. My takeaway from this episode was that even defining what happiness is is harder than you'd think. The three of us have different differing opinions on what it is and how to find it. So, I hope you get some ideas that help you on your journey towards happiness and abundance. welcome to Tales of Abundance. Why settle for less? Uh, as always, I'm here with Dr. John Oberg and also frequent contributor Anthony Marino in the house today. And we are going to talk in happiness. We had a we had a recent episode on happiness. And today we're just going to chop it up and discuss our feelings on happiness. So John, I know you wanted to get clarity starting out like what what is happiness, right? And and define it for us. So — yeah, I you I don't know that I have like the textbook definition of happiness, but I think that people often talk about happiness and they talk about joy and they talk about those things intermingled and I don't care which word you use like either one can like use whatever word you want. I definitely don't want to get into a definitional debate, but there's something you have because you choose to have it. Let's call that joy for today. And there's something that is a feeling that you chase. And let's just call that happiness. That's fleeting, right? And so both of those things are things.

[01:26] There are probably people that have really smart definitions of that, you know, as they think through it. But like when I talk about this with my family, we talk about joy being like a choice that you make. And happiness is something that you either chase or you get when you chase something else. I would say that a life well-lived leads to happiness. And then you choose joy even in the face of suffering. And so, but anyway, there's something that is a choice and there is something that is a a uh a response to something you've — Anthony, you have a I I have a feeling you disagree with that. — It's not so much that I disagree, but I did do a little bit of research on this and um I think everyone's heard of the founding fathers — once or twice. — Okay. And they started off the Declaration of Independence with the right to pursue life, liberty, and — Well, how do you think they defined happiness? Do you think we we should maybe go back and think about what those guys were thinking about versus — what the modern world thinks about — Please do.

[02:28] — I'd be even more interested in what they defined as the pursuit of happiness. — Well, that's what that's what they were talking about, the the actual pursuit of So let me read it to you. Living a virtuous meaningful life versus what we do or what we focused on which is feeling good emotionally satisfied. So that you'll see the juxtaposition here between the modern version of happiness and what the intent of our founding fathers was. Not saying they were right or wrong. It just I found it very interesting. flourishing through liberty and virtue versus enjoying comfort and success. Freedom to pursue moral and civic goals which I found very interesting from the p perspective of pursuit of happiness for the good of And lastly, they were rooted in classical versus rooted in individual emotion or achievement. So when we talk about it, I find that what they were talking about was more joyful. Well, I hold on. You're talking about the pursuit of something that leads to um a an outcome. Joyful the way I've described and and see here's the problem, right? I think yes, you're right. is joyful. But there's also something else where you can you can be joyous in a moment of difficulty or uh you can have gratitude. You can look for the silver lining and that's a different thing than the pursuit of happiness. And so we just need to acknowledge there's two separate conversations. I think we're both having the same conversation about the pursuit of happiness. But there is also something else about like I can be joyful in suffering.

[04:18] You know, there are people that have uh you know, endstage cancer and they're have a very joyful, calm, peaceful life because they choose to look at things through a lens of gratitude. That's one thing. Then there's a separate thing which is leading a virtuous life and pursuing outcomes that are so those are just two separate conversations. And I think we bump into a problem when we have those two conversations. We conflate them together because they're two separate things. I I happen to call one joy and one happiness, but that's a totally arbitrary definition. Like there's nothing there's nothing like definitive about that. That's just the the way that I've organized it in my head. But when I hear when I hear Anthony discussing the founding fathers, it my take away from that is they were focused on living a good life, service, making the world a better living in a certain way versus it all being laughs and giggles and and some of the things that now like you know to Anony's point or their point today. So much of it I think comes because somebody watches a Tik Tok video or a YouTube clip or they they do they jump out of an airplane or there's it's more moments.

[05:40] — Yeah. I mean you get you're getting a dopamine hit and what you guys are both talking about is some form of delayed gratification, right? Where I would say in to make the point you're making is that the a life well-lived leads to happiness but chasing happiness directly it's almost always fleeting. It's like a rainbow. You can never get to the end of it. So, I would agree with the way you've described the founding fathers view happiness where what is a life well-lived? And — we can I think I'm still saying we should still carve out the other part of the conversation which is you can also choose to be grateful in a really crappy set of circumstances that leads to something that is often conflated with this conversation. And separating the two allows you to have both of those things, which makes for a much better — Yeah. I feel like we we've taken this discussion and turned it into a, you know, a chili with beans and meat and everything else. And we got joy in there. We got happiness in there and so forth. From the listeners perspective, when they see the title of this podcast, what are they going to be thinking about? They're going to be thinking about happiness. And the way people perhaps are thinking about happiness, they're thinking about it as a as a destination and a state of mind. My argument is, and we made this, we talked about this pre-production, that happiness in and of itself is just a literally a literal thing that comes and goes. It may and the the the come and the go can be a moment. It can be a day.

[07:12] It can be a year. It can be whatever it is. But it is a specific thing that occurs that makes you happy versus a life well-lived brings you something else and define it any way you want. You can call it joy. You can call it peace of mind. You can — I don't think it is something else. I think it brings you that same happiness in a much more sustainable larger dose. I think you're talking about delayed gratification for a much bigger longerl lasting uh dose of that thing and I think joy is entirely separate. I think this is the problem because when you're when you chase something and you're chasing the wrong thing, you never find the thing you're looking for like like like this is the heart of I think what the conversation I was hoping at least part of it that I wanted to have. — Let me ask let me ask a different When have you overall been happiest in your life? And I'm not talking about a moment. I'm not talking about when you won the game or you your child was born or I'm I'm not talking about those moments. I'm just talking day in day out, month after month, for a year, for a time frame. Think back to the happiest like when were you consistently happy?

[08:24] — That's what I'm struggling with because I I wouldn't define that those feelings as happiness. I would define those feelings more broadly in peace of mind um security um it's a state of mind it's a it's a feeling of success overall uh confidence um uh ego you know some ego gratification of what what's been achieved the happiness part I I always go back to the same thing it's I know it's boring but it yes the things you speaking in front of 5,000 people and being congratulated and all that that brought me some happiness in that moment. It didn't really embed itself in my, you know, uh, feeling of gratitude and keeping me settled and so forth. It was it was it was a thing. It was it was a great thing and I moved on from it. Just like the game, you it was here and it goes on. So I think the pursuit of and then you can fill in the blank with whatever whatever it is that you want it to be. If you want to call it happiness, great. Call it that's your version of where that you want to be in.

[09:36] — Let me let me Yeah, I'm going to let me clean this up. There's something you choose definitively — and that's a thing, gratitude, whatever. And then there's something that is is an outcome of a series of actions, you know, whether short-term or long term. That's the distinction I want to draw is is that, you know, there are some things you can actually choose. I I'm gonna call that joy for right now. You're you're you're using the term joy for something else, which by the way is totally appropriate. And we're getting hung up into this semantic debate, which is what I don't want to do. What I do want to do is clarify like there's a choice you get to make about some things. And there's other things where you pursue something, whether you pursue it in the instant or pursue it from the long term. Like that's the conversation that's much more interesting on happiness for me. But not talk like there's a whole another topic around I'm grateful despite my circumstances. That's something and and that can lead to that other thing by the way. Right. But but I think I I really think that we're well served to to to draw a bright line between those two things because when we conflate them, we get really more confused than we already are in the first five minutes of this conversation.

[10:42] — But I think Anony's, you know, Anony's got questions he's asking for himself, right? Like he's trying to understand happiness and thinking about his life. And you know, I I asked the question, you know, when I that I said, "When have you been the happiest?" For me, yes, there's times where you win the award, you win the game, you have you have the moment. But lasting happiness for me is when I'm working on something greater than myself. — And I am allin and I it's aligned with my beliefs. It's aligned with what I want to accomplish, what I want to give the world, and I am putting it. Some of it, the times have been when I worked the hardest, but I was aligned. And there have been other times where work did not bring me happiness because I didn't enjoy it, right? And I was working on something and it might have just been simply I got burned out or I was just doing it for the money. It's really hard in my opinion to be happy in those circumstances. So being aligned with mission and I ag gratitude by the way we couldn't talk about gratitude — Right. I mean anybody that's gratitude that that is grateful is going to be — Yeah. I I just think that there are times that you can be grateful in a crappy circumstance where you're not really happy because life is and but but you're grateful for the things you do have and and you're not really happy in the way we're describing it.

[12:06] And I think there's also times that you can be happy even though you're not choosing to be grateful. And that and that's why I think you separate the two because I think in a life well-lived, you know, my encouragement for myself and for my loved ones is to do both, right? And but but again, it's they're they're different. Maybe Anthony, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Are you you're talking maybe more today's world is more about pleasure and immediate gratification versus the founding fathers were more about mission and fulfillment. — Right. That that was the point of that was to point that out that — that's the big deal. and we're talking about a mo a modern society. That's what we're dealing with today. So we're not going to go back to the founding fathers. Um I don't know maybe in 100 years somehow that'll — circle back. But — this one of the struggles that that I wanted to bring up is so much of what drives us to the mood that we're in, right? Or the state of mind that you're we're in is out of out of our control. You can you can work your butt off to live the the life best lived, but someone slamming into you at the red light, you know, with because they're on their cell phone, someone get becoming ill, you know, just, you know, the layoff, you get laid off from your job, you know, things that are out of your control have you've got to you got to navigate that. Now, if you're trying to be quote unquote happy or in a peaceful state of mind or, you know, want to keep progressing yourself, you got to fight through those things that you don't control. And it's so much I think it's far more out of your control than what's in in your control. The especially now the way things move so much faster. Um, circumstances change so much faster. Not to mention what you know is sitting in front of us in terms of AI and the social media and so on and so forth.

[14:10] It's very very difficult to remain in a really good mood all day long. You turn on the news, you know, forget about it. You know, you're dragged into the muck and mire of the day. And it's just um something that as we talk to our our audience, you know, what are they thinking? You know, oh wait a minute, happiness. Yeah, happiness is being in a good mood all the time. No, no, it isn't. It isn't that. So, I don't know. That's why that's what the struggle is. And that's why I think there is juosition here. There's an argument to be made. There is, you know, it's it's definitely nuanced. It's nuanced like a black hole is nuanced. What's really in — There's some things that are really clear, too. Like you just said a minute ago, like comfort, like I've said this to my kids, like comfort shouldn't be the long-term goal. Like it's a it's a goal at moments and times, but like getting rid of friction and work in your life, like biologically humans are designed to work. And so if your goal is not to work, like you're working against biology. And I think there's moments in time that's great, but you know, even even retirement is a political construct, not a biological one.

[15:16] — Well, we've talked about this with in terms of AI, right? Like that this is one of the concerns of AI. Now, we may think AI is going to create more jobs than it takes away or not, but one of the concerns is that that's not going to happen and then people aren't going to work. But there's people that I know people that go through life, they don't work, and they're I don't know, they seem super happy to me, but you never know, right? Some people seem happy on the outside and they're not on the inside. They find ways and they find things to keep them busy. — Well, yeah. I think I think work. Yeah. I mean, when I say work, I don't necessarily mean a job. I'm talking about, you know, being productive and that can be gardening, you know, being being productive in your garden is work. — Yeah. But we also know the people that retire, stop work, they're perfectly healthy, they retire, and then all of a sudden they die in two years because they don't know what to do with themselves anymore. — That's right. — That's, you know, that's a real thing, — Holding on to happiness or whatever we're defining as happiness is is not easy to do. you know, you can be on the best vacation on the planet. Everything went great. You're on a sailboat. You're doing whatever you wanted to do and it's everything is fantastic. And then you get to the airport to come home and the flight's canceled or the rental car breaks down or whatever the case might be and everything is now not happy. It just drags you down and the battle to maintain that what you had versus what you're facing is extremely difficult and I think we get caught up in the moment of negativity and not let you know that really great time that we had really wash over that you know what this is just this is the price you know this is the cost of all that other stuff and I don't think people do that. I think there's I think there's some though. I mean I mean I think this is where kids are such an interesting like uh petri dish right because you know kids that stuff in many cases does just wash off and there is not and so the then the question becomes well how do we get here like if I was you know a child at 5 years old and that didn't bo like how like what's the problem like like where do we go wrong? Well, okay, let's go back to Anony's point. You're on a vacation. You had the great vacation. You're on the sailboat and everything's perfect and then you have troubles getting home.

[17:39] I've been there, right? I could tell a horror story of horror stories. One's going to Vegas, one's coming back from Costa Rica. About as bad of travel experiences as anybody could have, right? And I'm not going to say I made the best of them, right? especially the Vegas one was pretty infuriating. But you know that like those are actually stories now that make them very memorable and some good times came especially the coming back from Costa Rica and some good times came out of that deal. And to John's point earlier about gratitude there is a decision that could be made to go into that and go oh well here's an opportunity. For example, I ended up spending a night in Miami on the way home from Costa Rica, even though I had a direct flight from Austin to Costa Rica. Somehow I ended up spending a night in Miami on the way home. And it was, you know, I missed I missed a day of work because of it and our day and a half and everything else. But, you know, we went out, we had a nice dinner, we there was a choice to make the best of it, right? and laugh and and so having gratitude or seeing looking at it from how do I turn you know this is cliche but how do I turn lemons into lemonade — well that choice the choice leads to the virtuousness which then leads back to the feeling maybe — no I get it I get that's great that you were able to do that the average human being I'm not sure can do that and at least in my experience with several human beings that have been in these situations.

[19:18] — Um, or it's even the feeling that this vacation is coming to an end — and I got to go back to, — you know, the grind, if you will. And that kind of like it it it takes a little bit out of you. And that's why I wanted to define I was so adamant about defining the difference between the happy feelings and forget about calling it happiness the happy feelings and that your overall state of mind and your overall um I always call it settled you know there's a for me there's a moment there there are there are periods of settlement where I'm it's like a a Roger Clemens throwing a fast ball. He can just fire it 100 miles an hour. It's gonna, you know, nip the corner nearly every time. Let's go 21 batters. It's just a feeling of being settled set. I'm settled and I got this and I'm do half the things I'm doing I'm doing unconsciously. It just it's just because in that whatever it is, I'm an athlete in that in that moment. Um, and that's why I wanted to define the happy moments from the overall feeling because the the other thing is true or has been true in all of our lives where we are unsettled completely the opposite of being settled and there are some happy moments still but we are in a you know we're in a dog fight for some reason. Um, and it could be any number of things, whether it's work, health, you know, someone in your family's got an issue, whatever the whatever it could be. Um, you got to now build a bunch of happy things to move in to where you need to be from to get back into a settled environment.

[20:58] — Do do you and the reason I asked that question is I think you're defining happiness right now the way we do it in the modern day, not where you started with the founding fathers, right? like like very much what you're talking about are experiences and external forces and I think it comes it starts in us right like if I think of the happiest people and the people that are just a joy to be around the people that are just always up always happy always see everything in an optimistic viewpoint that starts with them they just tend to think every day is a great day and they're really grateful for being alive and and They they just always see the sunshine and the rainbows, right? And I think it's an opportunistic and maybe it's because of the mission they're on in life or their comfort, but I think it comes from within. Like I don't think it's these outside things. They create, again, we're getting into definitions, but more fun, entertainment, maybe joy in the short term, but I don't think those things actually create happiness. I don't think I don't think being on the sailboat in the blue Caribbean waters, as fantastic as that is, right? We'd all agree that's that's a fantastic day and part of a life well well-lived, but I don't think that actually creates happiness. It creates a — Agreed. Agreed. It's a it totally agreed. You had a guest on um I forget his name. The the the gentleman who um does the gatherings.

[22:41] He's where I want to be. He was he nothing that And then after he leaves here, we have the floods down in in K County where he was very much involved in the recovery efforts and so forth. That guy was in such a joyful, settled place where everything he was doing was for the good of mankind. Totally selfless um it it was per perfection personified in terms of where you want to go. Now, how he got there, he ought to write a dozen books about how how he got there. But at the same time, while I'll bet he's still in that positive state of mind, he had to endure one of the most horrific experiences in his life. And I wonder how that affected him in those moments. Um, — I bet he was I bet he was in his element and happy as hell even diving in the water trying to save people despite the flood. Like knowing Andrew.

[23:45] — Yeah. That's that's that's where he wanted to be in that moment. — Yeah. He was probably happy to be Um and it wasn't going to affect him. um it's not going to he's not going to stop being the person who he was — where where I think when honestly the average person myself included is in many in many many times unable to maintain that settlement because of some uh trauma or some set of circumstance even though I got a bunch of other stuff going great money in the bank blah blah blah blah something happens and all this other stuff all of a sudden I'm completely unsettled even though I really shouldn't be um or the average person not me u has trouble maintaining that state of mind. So, I think I just put my finger on why the distinction was so important to me. Like I didn't I could I was I was thinking about like why is this not important to Anthony like the way that I think it should be and why in the world is it so important to me? And the answer is I'm a control freak. And so what I want to know is what skill can I develop to be joyful.

[24:56] My definition of joy like where I can choose gratitude like that's a skill set to choose gratitude in crappy situations. And I've had to develop that skill over time. And there's a separate different skill to develop that um the the the long-term uh you know let's call it broad-based happiness for whatever term and that skill is about being on mission and being purposeful about what my life what I'm called to do and and that's that life of virtue. So I think the reason the distinction is so important to me is because it is two different things I've had to practice. one being joyful and gr and grateful and that is one skill where it's seeing the world a certain way despite difficulty and there's a different skill which is understanding my purpose so that I can give back to the thing that that lets me to be happy even in in light of difficult circumstances I couldn't figure out why that was I was like fighting with I was wrestling with this — go ahead Anthony I'm not don't want to correct anything but we've had we we're talking too much about I I have to do this, I have to do that. The in order to have happy moments and have um back to the settled lifestyle, life's an orchestra. There are there are a lot of people and a lot of things involved um that have to go right or can go wrong that have a tremendous impact on how we get to what you're what you're defining. Right. you could have the best intentions and I'm going to live this life and I'm always going to be the be the guy out front and so on and so forth, but I'm sure Andrew has a community around him that is enabling him to be the person that he is, right? And if you have the wrong people or the people that that are in your circle are having a tough time or whatever the case might be, it makes it much more difficult to have quote unquote happiness or a happy uh period of time in your life. So — we were talking about it without him in the room. I wish he was in the room, but I think he would tell you that he is he has selected those people and he even said on the show like there are people that are uninvited, right? And so I think I think that the group of people in community around him like that's not an accident. And and there are books written about the five people in your life and you're you're the average of the five people you spend the most time with. And and there are people that very deliberately choose their people and there are people that let life happen to and by the way I think that's true broadly with people in this world. Like there are people that actively participate in their own life and there are people that let life bounce them around wherever it's going to bounce them around. And I think that's a really material impact on the joy and the happiness you feel in your life.

[27:39] — John, I would well actually let me make one point again back to where you started. Anthony Andrew I would say is aligned very well with the founding fathers, right? He's after mission. He's after contribution. He believes in God. He believes in his community helping it. It's back to that. — But John, I I would just challenge you a little bit. That's that's what works for you. And that might work that's going to work for some of the the having a system and very carefully planning who you're around. And I'm not disagreeing by the way. If you're around happy, successful, positive, grateful people, that will make you more. I think — there are people that are born into it too, right? There are people whose parents set them up in that way and they're very deliberate about it. And there are people that luck into it. I'm just all I'm not suggesting like I've not been really great about like saying here are the five and I'm going to boot people out and like that's not been a thing I've done. — But I'm saying that's a that's a good strategy and for some listeners that's probably exactly what they need. But I'm also thinking of people I know that just wander through life and they're really happy. Like that's their thing, right?

[28:52] Like, you know, some of the people that just want to, you know, take the extreme example, there's people that just go surf every day. They live in the back of a van. They hang out. They just figure, you know, they don't have a plan for a week from now or even tomorrow. It's just I'm going to go hit the waves and I'm going to I had a conversation this week with someone who met a homeless guy in and the person that I was talking to, very successful, works very very hard, and the homeless guy's like, "You're the chump. Like, like you're paying taxes to get my food paid for. I can sleep where I want to sleep. I can talk to who I want to talk to. I can do whatever I want to do. You're gonna pay for my medical care. Like, it's all free. Like, who's the chump? And the guy that I was hearing the story from, I I looked at him like, man, that's a it's a very fair — Yeah. Right. Right. I mean, — so I don't disagree that that that can't be a path, — right? That that probably doesn't work for you, right? I mean, that would — But I don't think that guy's any less happy than I am. He might be happier — No, but what I'm saying is if you were the surf bum and you didn't know where you were going to sleep or how you were going to pay for food tomorrow, you would probably have huge anxiety over — Yeah. But his purpose might be different than mine. That's that's the beauty of this, right? Is that like when you can acknowledge that everyone's purpose is radically different and that like if you put anybody else in the world on my path, I have to believe it would make them miserable.

[30:12] — Maybe. I mean there's but there's other people like you or similar to you. — Totally. But I guess my point is like I don't believe that like I have like if you do it in fact I think it's really destructive if I'm like you should do what I did or what I do like I actually think that's a real path for destruction not happiness. I think you know I tell people this all the time like if like I try to help people find their path. I don't try to help them find my path. And so if their path is the surf bum or the homeless guy or the doctor or the lawyer, like I don't I don't have any judgment about that. — Right. I I I'm not saying you do. I'm just saying we're I think we're talking past each other. We're kind of arguing the same point, right? That one person you have a system where you're saying cultivate this five and do that like you — you want to plan everything and you you are excellent at best systems and best — Yeah. Yeah. I don't think you heard me though, Randy. That's not I mean that's not what I I was saying that Andrew is very deliberate about choosing his community. Very deliberate. And there are lots of people and the books written about that you are the sum of those people. And there are people that are born into really great situations.

[31:21] — So I but but I'm not I'm not telling you like you have to go do that. — I I heard you. I'm not saying Andrew I'm I wasn't disputing Andrew. I'm just saying there's different people with different things. But let's let's move — Yeah. 100%. No. I I I violently agree. — Okay. In fact, tell you what listeners. Let's go to break. Uh we will have more of this discussion when we come back and I think we're going to get into some of the tools and things that we think are important to finding happiness and some of the blockers in the way. Hey, it's Randy from Tales of Abundance. Is starting a business part of your journey? Do you have ambition but no clear path? Maybe you feel trapped in your current career? Do you want a real business that can produce $250,000 or more income for you and your family? We have an opportunity for a profitable business that can be part of your path to abundance. I want to personally invite you to see the proven system we've built. It's designed to give you that freedom and control you've been searching for. Visit premiumc to learn more. That's premiumc Tales of Abundance. Why settle for less?

[32:27] And uh we we've been talking about happiness. And let's get into John Anthony a little bit. What are just tools and tips? What is what what did you see has helped you? What do you see helped others? What are things you might tell a listener if they want they just want to be happier? We we've talked about gratitude a lot, right? Should we I mean, we put a bow on that. Do we need to go deeper on grat? I mean, I I don't think we could talk enough about gratitude, but I don't want to beat a dead horse. — Series of episodes for us. We need to do — Yeah. Right. So, what what is the thing? You can't be sad if you're grateful, right? Like you're almost forced to be happy. like your mind can't entertain both at the same time. So, gratitude, gratitude, gratitude. We we've went deep there. We've talked about mission. — Yeah. I think back back to where we were before the break, like I think people have to find their path. I think that in my experience is that people don't don't people are generally happy when they're on the path that feels right for them and they're generally not happy when they feel on the path that's for somebody else. And you see that in like companies where the company has a culture where it's driving people toward a thing and people aren't happy in that culture. And so, and then back to the example used earlier with the surfer or the guy the homeless guy, I I just I really think that that happiness is is generally a virtuous life that fits someone's purpose for themselves.

[33:43] — I think that aligns with mission, right? I mean, I think it's whether it's defined or not defined, they're on the right path for them. And, you know, maybe maybe that's aligned with their their religion, their beliefs, their faith, right? where where their God is telling them to go. — Yeah. And I don't have I don't think it has to be explicit. I I've met a lot of people who are exactly on purpose and who are very focused on purpose who couldn't actually tell you what their purpose is at all, but they are clearly in their purpose and like again I that's that's fine. I think that's you know nothing wrong with that. — Okay. You know, one of the things, now this came from a Iawaska trip, but one of the questions I ask myself a lot, I have it on the wall in my office, is just asking God or asking the universe, what should I be doing right now? And just asking that question, I makes life easier. It's hard. It's hard to give up that control and the e get the ego out of the way. It's hard as hell. But when you actually do it, whether it's, you know, part of some kind of a meditation or just simply asking the question, that has worked pretty pretty effectively for me.

[34:50] — Yeah. So asking yourself is is is what I'm doing or planning to do going to lead to the outcome that I really want or am I doing this because somebody's making me do it or and and sometimes we are in that life where are in that moment where we have to do that. I think a lot of you know we sit here as especially me an older gentleman uh with experience life experience and I think that a lot of you know the pursuit of happiness or getting to a happier state it comes with age as you learn to accept — you know think of the brooding teenager living in uh West Lake you know going to a private school good you know baseball coaching the good parents intact household and he's moping around the house, you know, for whatever. No reason to be moping around the house, right? That same kid at, you know, 35 after he's graduated college, got a good job, you know, things are still good, married, maybe a kid, different guy, you know, different person. So age will will help. Um, so maybe the a focus could be maybe that would be a good podcast someday is to bring in a guest that could help help us help people at a younger age get to this point versus you know the older you get the more you — You've had teenagers. Is there really — Well, it wasn't for us. No, I could take that. I take that back. Not really, but I I will because — because they're listening.

[36:21] — They're listening. But um yeah, I mean I think the as you as you get older and you've had these experiences both good and bad, you you know, you're more accepting and you and you and it's easier to have gratitude, you know, because you've been through so much. — Were any of us when we were teenagers moping around and like that's very common today. — Oh, yeah. — Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. — Wow. That was not my Maybe that because it wasn't me, but I don't think it wasn't my friends either. Like I don't I don't remember that at all. Maybe it's just so long ago I've forgotten, but I don't remember that shitty teenage attitude back then. — I I you know, I seem to remember people that were teenagers with me that were pretty happy in their teenage years. I probably wouldn't put myself in that category. Like I wasn't unhappy. Like I had I had a good life in my teenage years, but it um — being a teenager is tough. — Yeah, it is. It's it's hard. But Anthony, you I mean, we've talked about that. You're I mean, you were moping. I mean, you were out doing all kinds of that in my kids that I was, you know, I was, you know, battling against the, you know, the establishment, against the parents. Yeah.

[37:39] — yeah. I I don't see I I really And I saw that in my kids. You know, another way to put it is did you you've raised some kids. Did they always listen to you? Did they always take your advice and counsel? So, that's that that's what I mean by brooding or, you know, battling. You know, you're trying to do something for their for the for their good and they're fighting you on it. So, they're fighting against the potential happiness that's there because they're not mature enough to see that what you're doing is good for them. So maybe brooding is is too descriptive a term, you know, pouting and so forth. I'm sure some more than others, but I think as in in a younger age and you're not, you know, you're you're trying to figure out who you are. — See, I think I was thinking of it different though. I'm thinking when the brooding is the good word, right? Like there's so many teenagers now that are in there just little everything sucks and this sucks and I'm bored and why this, why that? And like I don't remember that when I was a kid. Frankly, if I would have done that, I would have got a boot up my ass.

[38:40] — Yeah. The board part never wasn't something I think there's so much stimulus now and it's so short-lived that they have to fight to go to the next short-lived thing. And if it isn't there for them, then suddenly they're bored and they're not entertained. Uh maybe that's something that that's something that's real. I don't know. I — let's bring it back to happiness, though. Like, so I think the real question was what are the keys to finding happiness, right? What do you think they are? Wow. I mean, we've talked about gratitude and mission and contribution. I I to me those are the big ones, right? Is is gratitude, mission, contribution. And it's different for different people, right? Some people it's trying to build a billion-dollar business. Somebody else it's volunteering at a homeless shelter. — Yeah. And I think, you know, I think there are some people that that have it figured out because they fell into it in their life. And there are some people that are trying it on their whole life. They're, you know, try it on, try it on. And I don't I don't I haven't put much thought into why that is, but I think, you know, until you find it, — some of it's genetics, — I'm sure. — Right. Some's genetics, some is where you like the family you were born into.

[39:44] — Right. If if you're born into a great family that's supportive, it's, you know, you're born on third base. — It's easier, but doesn't get you home, — right? Yeah. — But you're born on third. — Sure. Absolutely. If you grow up in a crappy, I don't care if it's inner city or it's redneck, you know, redneck paradise, whatever, and everybody's in, you know, shitty houses or trailer houses and people are doing drugs or meth and gangs around you. Okay. You're behind, it's harder. But then there's people that that there's still people that grow up in those circumstances that are super happy. — Yeah. Yeah, I mean and you just brought up something, you know, you just everything you just listed to me fits inside the US and you know what we haven't talked about is like is this different in other countries and other parts of the world and you know my experience I've been to you know uh other parts of the world where the happiness is seems to be abounding everywhere and the economic gain and measures of like US economic success would be nowhere to be found and they did not appear to be correlated during that day. So agreed. I see it in, you know, I've spent a fair amount of time in Central America, the Caribbean. Uh, and it it Yes, it's abundantly clear they're probably happier than we are, even though they have far less on average. So why let's why is that?

[41:00] — I mean, they have what they need. I I I think that you can focus on the things you don't have that you want or you can focus on what you have. And I think that choice uh impacts your happiness quite a bit. like that that particular bias matters a ton. — I think I think it's back to gratitude, but I also think a lot of it those people tend to be very family orientated and they're focused on their family. They're they're more concerned with having a good family and spending time with their family than they are working on their business or their job. — Right. Or — relationships seem to matter like like the where where they place the importance of personal relationships, you know, seems to be different. Yeah, they tend to be much more religious. Yeah, they tend to be, you know, very Catholic. All the the Latin American countries are a lot of them you gone to. — I wasn't going to say it, but I'm glad you did. — Andrew Catholic, — but they're more they're more religious. — I mean, I that would be my that would be my takeaways, right? is — blue zones would like if you if you look at any of the research from blue zones um you know faith was one of the things um you know community was certainly one of the things like there there's some really interesting findings in that blue zone report um and I just I think about like the if you watched uh I think it was I can't maybe it was Bourdain or somebody did the blue zones documentary series and doesn't seem like it was Bourdain but the they went to Sicily and man the people there just so happy, you know, and guys 90 years old walking up and downhill miles a day in terms of health and just — well that's one thing exercise right instead of getting in our car eating all the carbs and the food our diet they're — probably better cleaner food — cleaner carbs in Sicily. Yeah.

[42:46] — Well, but but cleaner food, fewer sugars, preservatives, all that type of stuff. They walk, they ride a bike, they're getting exercise, they're getting sunlight, they're don't have time. They life's harder. They have to accomplish stuff. — Right. They they can't just go to the, you know, grocery store and buy or have Uber Eats or whoever deliver their crap and instead sit and play video games or, you know, be on social media all day. — Yeah. I don't I I'd come at it a little bit different um in that some of some of the populations that you talked about have different — right, and different opportunities. So someone living in a a difficult uh what appears to be a difficult environment um whose you know the hierarchy of needs are met in terms of survival and food and you know sustenance with no expectation that they're going to have a big screen TV and a big car and and all that other stuff can be extremely happy because they're providing for their family. And we we kind of glossed over it a little bit, but if it doesn't matter what how you feel. If the people around you aren't happy for whatever reason, it it's going to drag you down. I mean that and that's and to me that's really where — the answer to your question is what will make you happy is to me am I making the people around me happy? Am I facilitating their opportunity to be happy? And am I succeeding at that? And if I am, there's a very good chance that I'm going to be in a very settled, happy — You have a quote about that I've heard multiple times. You know what I'm talking about?

[44:32] — Yeah. You were only as happy as your unhappiest child. — I don't know who I stole that from. Thank you, whoever that was. Definitely. I didn't think it up on my own. — First time I ever heard it was from you. And it's a lot of people have heard that from people as I've kind of shared that quote, but there's just so much truth in — Yeah. Yeah. And I would and I would expand it to you're only as happy as the unhappiest person in your life. So, um yeah, just and and I again back to the other other cultures and other um uh places in the world, it it really comes down to that no matter what their economic ceiling or their lifestyle ceiling might be. So, you know, as we know, we know we all know we're very wealthy men and women who have sold businesses for tens and hundreds of millions of dollars. They're miserable. — Just they're just miserable for whatever reason. I don't even want to try to figure out what why it is. — Well, let's let's dig you want to talk about it. Let's dig into it. Um I mean, high achievers, right? Like we've talked about this in the past. There's high achievers that are miserable. You you see people that are very successful and they hate life and they become alcoholics or they become drug addicts or they kill themselves and to the outside world these are the successful people. So why aren't they happy? Well, I mean first of all to to part of the part of the outside world I think there are people that you know you just the Daly Lama probably wouldn't feel that way, right? You I think there's a lot of people in the faith community that would see that as being misguided. I think there's a lot of therapists that would see that as mis. So I think but by and large I think we've got a marketing engine in this country that shows you what needs to be shown so that you go buy their product or service like like the amount of times we get influenced about what expectations could should want to be because of the logo the you know be like Mike you know it's a whole series of commercials and so so I think that's a part of it is is that we have a marketing engine influencing us for the benefit of the marketing engine not for the benefit of society that's a big big big one — I I think that's true. I I would also say comparison, right? What's the saying? Comparison is the thief of joy.

[46:42] — You know, I mean, there's just there's so many people that are so successful, but you know that they compare themselves to the people around him and they feel like a loser. — Just about Yeah. Norms like societal norms. I think that's that that's a really big deal in the US. I don't know that that same thing happens in Central America as much or if it happens. I mean, Anthony, you've been throughout Europe a ton. Did you see that type of comparison in kind of non urban situ like maybe in Paris, London, whatever, but when you were in like not the kind of urban centers of Europe, did you see that same thing? — No, you don't you don't see that. But but that said, the high high achievers, the big money people of Europe or China, Southeast Asia, they they and the United States, they have there there is a population of them or a group of them that become uh egoomaniacs and they feel that they're above everybody else and nothing. So they can they can do whatever they want to do. they can have, you know, um they they put their family second and they don't and and as a result of that that drags them down because they always that always turns out to be a mistake.

[47:52] And so selfishness, and we've talked about selfishness in the past, I think rear its ugly head with an with an overachiever. Um you see it with athletes. You see it you see it in all in all walks of life. So — I I also think just values and beliefs. I think some people have s in a way sold their their soul to the devil. Maybe not literally but they have pursued something that doesn't align with their mission. It doesn't align with their core beliefs and I think it eats them — I think there's identity problems too like where people they tie up their identity with their work and their work isn't truly their identity. that that that I mean we get a whole episode about identity and how identity can get sideways and and the thing we haven't talked a lot about we've touched on it but is like just the societal norms like we live in communities you know small and large that have a set of norms and sometimes those norms don't serve happiness you know we we measure as a country gross domestic product not gross domestic happiness where there are countries we've talked about that measure gross domestic happiness and so you know those those are some choices we make and that's you know That's — yeah, you know, I'm just I'm also just thinking, you know, back to Anony's like on the yacht, but a lot of the best times I have is just having lunch with a friend or a group of people and sitting around and talking, laughing, you know, whether it's friends, family, you know, kind of back to these other countries. I mean, but a lot of times those things I think bring more happiness than the short term of some of the stuff that we we think about. Right.

[49:28] — Right. Yeah. I mean, rel talked about the fact that we're made to work. We're also made to be in community. Like, like humans are a community animal. That's just true. — All right, let's put a bow on this thing. Anything else? Any parting comments, thoughts, — No, I think it was a good It's a good discussion. It's uh nuanced. It's not a right or wrong answer. It's not a final destination. It's work right up until you know that that final day comes that you have to um you know be conscious of what you're doing and what you want to do and who you're impacting — and I think you add all that together and that can get you to a good place. — I think everyone's answer is different too like what works for me may not work for you. So you may not find the right answer by talking to me or talking to you. you might have to figure it out on your own or try some different things on, but I think that's, you know, that's that's the work to be done like and and it's not hopeless, right? There there are things people can do to impact their happiness and that's a choice you make to invest that time in that way if you choose to. — Yeah. I I I'm just thinking back to episodes back, Dr. Dustin Williams was on and he just talked about taking one step to the right when it comes to health and exercise. I think the same thing applies here. I I've thought a lot about that since that episode. Just taking one step to the right on happiness would be a good a good first step for a lot of people. Whatever whatever that looks like. So — that's the right bow. We should stop — All right. Well, listeners, John says stop there. We're stopping there. Uh thank you. Thank you as always for listening. Uh subscribe, download, tell your friends, tell your neighbors, and uh go to the website talesofabundance.com for free tools.

[51:05] Download the podcast wherever you get podcast. Aunt John Anthony, thank you. Great conversation as always. Listen and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Click follow for more content like this or go to talesofabundance.com to join our community and get free tools.

What Is Happiness? Gratitude, Purpose, and the Myth of Feeling Good All the Time