From CIA Case Officer to Teacher: Josh Graham

Show notes

From CIA Case Officer to the Classroom: Josh Graham on Identity and Purpose

Former CIA case officer Josh Graham tells Randy Lorensen and Dr. John Oberg how he went from operations work overseas to teaching ancient history, and what that history may say about America today.

Josh grew up in New Mexico and Austin, wrestled with faith and grace at Biola, and switched to political science after time in Israel and China. He was a D.C. intern on September 11, 2001, and that day put him on the path to the CIA's clandestine service. He explains what an operations officer actually does, why The Americans is the closest thing on TV to the real job, and what living under cover does to your relationships and your sense of who you are.

He also talks about leaving the agency, rebuilding his identity, and how he handles stress by focusing on the next right thing. He talks about using power ethically, too.

Now he teaches ancient history and coaches basketball. In the second half he walks from early civilization through the Roman Republic and Empire, and asks whether America is a republic or an empire. He also asks what Rome's corruption and recovery might teach us. He ran for Congress in 2024, and says he'll be back for another episode.

What a CIA Case Officer Does, and What the Fall of the Roman Republic Teaches Us

What you'll discover:

How September 11 put Josh on the path to the CIA
What a CIA operations officer does, and what TV gets right
How undercover work affects identity, faith and marriage
Rebuilding after the agency: focusing on the next right thing
Why ancient history and classical education matter
The Roman Republic's decline, and parallels to America today

Timestamps

[00:00] Welcome Josh Graham: from CIA officer to history teacher
[00:56] Growing up in New Mexico and Austin
[02:42] Grace and faith at Biola
[05:20] Basketball and injuries
[06:13] Travels in Israel and China
[07:58] Political science and a D.C. internship
[08:39] September 11 in Washington
[10:37] Deciding to join the CIA
[11:30] The application process
[13:18] What an operations officer does
[15:08] What TV gets right: The Americans
[18:49] Why it isn't a place of flourishing
[21:32] Building a cover
[26:01] How undercover work changes you
[29:35] Leaving the agency, and a radical change
[31:21] Handling stress: the next right thing
[34:55] Power, ethics and integrity
[39:33] Bringing his past into the classroom
[42:12] Graduate school at UT Austin and Texas A&M
[44:53] Teaching ancient history in a hybrid school
[48:27] Classical education and partnering with parents
[49:23] Why history matters today
[50:17] From early civilization to Rome
[53:51] Are we an empire or a republic?
[57:24] The Roman Republic and the struggle of the orders
[59:08] Wealth, corruption and decline
[1:02:48] Can a civilization recover? Constantine
[1:07:15] Where is America in the cycle?
[1:10:53] Respectful conversations, and Josh will be back

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About Josh Graham

Josh Graham is a former CIA case officer who now teaches ancient history and coaches basketball at a private school in the Austin area. He studied at Biola, did graduate work at the University of Texas at Austin and Texas A&M, and ran for Congress in 2024.

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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:01] with Josh Graham. And I think you're going to find this fascinating. His journey from CIA case officer to high school history teacher and basketball coach. In fact, it was so good we're going to have him back for a part two. Abundance. Uh we have, as always, an exciting episode today with Josh Graham is our guest. And Josh is currently uh a teacher at a private school teaching ancient history which I think has a whole bunch of interesting threads we can pull on. A basketball coach. He ran for Congress last year. And uh that is not where we're going to start because I think there's you're burying the headline, man. Like I'm like a kid in a candy store with this one. Yeah, we're going to we're going to wait on that. We're we're gonna we're gonna leave him guessing for just a minute. So let's let's start with the background because I I want to know the background and uh and how we got there. So, you know, you were born to today, but just we'll, you know, we're not going to go into this deep, but give us the Josh, I'm not normally this patient. I'm going to go with this for a few minutes, but I got say Randy is doing a great job of building the suspense. Go ahead. I want to hear the background, too.

[01:07] Sure, that's fair. Uh, I was born in 1980 and I have, you know, two wonderful parents and I have a younger brother uh in Colorado Springs and my dad was in athletics for different universities growing up. So, athletics has always been a important part of my family's life. So, we jumped around to different university towns. Uh, Air Force Academy, University of Wyoming, University of New Mexico, James Madison University, Truman State University in Northeast Missouri, and then finally to Seattle Pacific University where I went to high school. And then, but my family historically comes from, you know, West Texas, Eastern New Mexico. So, my dad wanted to get out of athletics and move down here to Austin. There you go. Everybody's graduate. Lobo wolf wolf wolf. Love it. That's right. There you go. Uh so yeah, so I graduated high school in Seattle. Uh wanted the son, needed to be away from my family for a little bit of time. So I went to a small Christian liberal arts school in Los Angeles for uh for my undergrad called Biola University. Uh and that and that's uh you know, as most college experiences happen or 18 to 22 year old, you know, experiences happen, a lot of things uh shaped me during that time.

[02:18] Uh, but I chose it because everyone uh I chose Biola University because everyone minors in biblical studies there. Uh, you were there like 98 to 2001. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Uh, because I Yeah, I finished a little bit early to go do, you know, some other And uh, and so during that time I experienced some different crises of faith. I was a uh evangelical Christian growing up. Um but really came into different crises while at Biola, you know, recognizing the role of grace in life and if it was real to me and you know, ownership of my own faith and uh and so uh you know, I kind of chose a harder uh harder path to figure out if it was real or not. Uh and and then and then so that that finished my undergraduate education. Um do you want anything more for big moments, successes, failures, You know, let's rip the band-aid off. Yeah. So, I mean, I think uh I mean besides the moving from state to state, you feeling like a nomad. Uh you know, I was we were mentioning before uh the camera was rolling that we just returned from New Mexico. We're a family reunion and uh for to honor the life of my grandmother who recently passed. And so family was really important here for our listeners.

[03:39] Bring this right up here. So family was always really important and uh and being in Los Cusus or Roswell or or in Midland uh because I moved so often then that part of the country felt most like home. Uh and and so it was great being back there. Uh the movement was you know not I wouldn't say traumatic but it definitely shaped me. uh you know not having a friend going back you know decades uh and learning how to be a chameleon in different environments in big cities like Seattle or small rural towns like Kirksville Missouri uh in different parts of the country you know Shannidora Valley with all the history there and the beautiful Blue Ridge Mountains is radically different than Albuquerque New Mexico uh you know uh both in terms of culture as well as you know just um vegetation and everything else but uh besides that I think the The largest most significant thing that shaped my uh life early on besides my faith and just more in a practical way is a uh succession of multiple uh knee injuries. And so I you know my my patella would keep dislocating and and I lost many different basketball seasons and I had to keep fighting back through therapy because I loved basketball so much. Uh and eventually in in high school, uh you know, I a doctor told me that if you keep going, you won't be able to walk at 30. And I had to sacrifice my dream of playing college ball. And my dad played at Mexico State. And that was a great dream of mine. Uh and and so it was just a the sacrifice of one dream and trying to pursue something else. Uh that was real and that was worth it. Um uh and but you know when you fight back from that many injuries from 7th grade through 12th grade uh it shapes you you know in terms of resilience and uh you know um perseverance and fortitude and you know like giving up seasons and you're in the therapy room just to make it back onto the team.

[05:41] Great. So the the thing John is so excited about all right so we won't make John wait too much longer here is at some point you joined the CIA. I did. Okay. Did that happen? Were you recruited in college or how how did that come about? Sure. So, I went to I went to Biola to be a high school history teacher and a basketball coach. Uh, but I started traveling and I went to Israel and Palestine in the summer of 2000 and that was right before the second Inifat and Inifata means uprising in Arabic. So, that's when the Palestinians, you know, started throwing rocks again at the Israelis that year. And then uh and then after that um this is while you're in college. This is while I was in college. there and then China in the spring of 2001 and that was right when they were joining the WTO and they were kind of coming out of you know their own isolationist um idea and uh you know that was the first crisis of George uh President George W. Bush's administration when their fighter pilot hit our spy plane and it crashed landed on Hainan Island and I was on Hainan Island, you know, visiting friends uh who were, you know, missionaries there and and but the purpose of the trip was just to look at China's education system and uh and so college organized trip.

[06:58] That's right. Well, it was a norwok Lam Marada school district organized trip in Southern California, but then we stayed an extra week long to to visit some friends and uh and so we went to, you know, Beijing and Shanghai and Guing and and um and then Tanzhen looking at different schools and then we stayed extra uh to go down to Hainan Island. And Hainan is kind of like their Hawaii. It's really beautiful. bullets in the South China Sea and and that's exactly where you know the the crash landed and and this great international incident occurred and I still have the People's China liberation daily uh says the US apologizes for you know uh injuring the the pride of China and said no we actually didn't apologize but that was the propaganda that uh that showed up in their newspaper and then coming back from that I was like I don't want to teach history. How can I teach history if I haven't, you know, learned history? I haven't learned the world yet. And so I changed my major to polyai and I went to DC for an internship. Uh, you know, 3 months, four months after I got back from China and first day on Capitol Hill was 9/11 and and so it was, you know, Tuesday, September 11th, 2001. Uh, you know, Monday was classes. I showed up and uh at my I was interning in a Capitol Hill office and uh focusing on human rights issues in the former Soviet Union and you know just cutting newspaper clippings. This is, you know, before the iPhone and everything and watching, you know, the the buildings get hit in New York City and I was like, "Oh, that's here. That's us." And knowing that, you know, the Pentagon hadn't been hit yet, but there was potentially a fourth and possibly coming to the Capitol building and they evacuated everyone else first uh before they let the interns go uh all the important people. And and so finally they let me go about uh I think we were evacuated around 9:30 and I got there at 8:30. So I was only on the job for 1 hour before you know this one of the most formative international events of you know in history occurred.

[09:08] That's intense. It was uh and you know if you've seen the movie Armag Armageddon with Bruce Willis and everyone you know the you know the meteors are showering down and you know people are running on their cell phones screaming crying that's kind of what it felt like in that day because you know there weren't meteor sh more missiles or anything like that but no one knew anything and it felt chaotic and people were emerging from parking garages and you know screaming and crying and mothers trying to get a hold of daycarees and I couldn't get a hold of my parents, you know, in in Georgetown, Texas, and they just knew that I had just shown up in DC, and chaos ensued. Uh, and on top of that, my my aunt uh lives in Manhattan. So, you know, two different family members were in, you know, the epicenters of this great crisis. So, I, you know, it was about a 15-minute walk back to my apartment building with all the other college students at the time. and but it took me an hour and a half because we had to get routed completely to a different part and just a long walk home. Uh and and then about a month later they found anthrax in my building. So it was a very eventful fall. You know the global war on terror begins, anthrax was found which we thought was a second wave essentially. Uh and and then uh that concluded it. But that definitely put me on the track to join the CIA uh because of my knee injuries and you know probably you know uh my family was concerned about me joining the military after this great event. So I was like okay well I don't have the knees to go into the army or the Marines or whatever and that's what I really wanted to do.

[10:45] Uh I'll just go in my own way. I'll figure it out. And I had a lot of mentors who were involved in different government agencies, you know, for the, you know, from 2001 to, you know, for 5 years or so. And they just say, "Hey, you should consider the intelligence world. We're doing a lot of important things, a lot of good things." And and I think you'd be great at it. So eventually, I don't know exactly how much I was recruited versus how much I applied, but uh eventually I found my way there. Uh it's not like it's not like you apply to like a job with somebody else. you you mean you do you walk up to the CIA and knock on the door and ask for an application and they're like yeah you know you want fries with that or well actually if you go to cia.gov gov right now you can see you know submit your application and you know so it's a completely open and transparent application process uh never thought I don't know right and then but uh but yeah your your application goes into a certain portal and and then I'm sure as you know any job situ or application if people know that you've applied and they're part of that world to put in a good word so I I suspect that happened but I don't have any verification uh of it happening you know later much later on I realized that someone that I had lunch with, he was just being friendly to a you know 20some year old at the time. Uh u but he's he was like you know um I found out that he was the equivalent of a four-star general uh there and I just you know was mentoring a young man who wanted to serve his country. U so uh but yeah so I'm sure the equivalent of a fourstar general working for the CIA correct who happened to mention like intelligence might be a good career for you and your applicate.

[12:21] Yep that's right. [laughter] I was joking before the show that I'd read like a bunch of talky novels and like all the other authors who write in that genre. I'm like, how much how like how real is that? That sounds a little, as my son would say, sus. That's [laughter] right. That's right. Yeah. My high school students, it might be a little bit out of vogue now, but Yeah. [laughter] So, is is is there a interview process? There is. It's very lengthy and detailed and involved as you might expect. I mean there uh it all depends upon uh you know the the veracity and the integrity of um of the applicant of the candidate. Uh I was specifically applying to go into operations. Uh it's uh historically it's been called the operations officer route. Uh but more commonly now it's called the case officer route. Uh and so uh so I was applying to be a case officer in um and it's had different names but the director of operations or the national clandestine service. Um so what does an operations officer do? Like what's what does that job description read like?

[13:25] Yeah. So, so the responsibility of an operations officer uh is essentially to find the information uh that policymakers need in order to uh direct US policy for either the protection or the opportunistic you know um I guess economic growth uh but it it primarily the protection of national security or uh to pave the way for the future if you will. So uh you know identify use the word spies yet but is that part of that work? Oh abs absolutely. So I mean like I mean that's uh spooks spy uh you know any of the you know uh you know the secret squirrel uh that's been a a commonly used term. So uh so the idea of uh identifying individuals that work uh either for foreign governments or have access to information internationally that can be of service to our country. uh then my job was to go out and convince them in one way or another uh to betray their own country and work uh for us. And you're allowed to talk about that publicly now? I mean, yes. For whatever reason, uh despite my efforts, the government chose to remove my cover for one year. So, officially, I worked for the CIA for one So, you worked for the CIA longer than that? Maybe one year.

[14:38] Okay. One year. Got it. [laughter] We have video, too. It's okay. Wow. Okay. I have so many more. Go ahead. Okay. So, there's tons of movies about the CIA, right? Tons of books like The Recruit with Pacino. Like, I I don't want to know which parts are true because I'm not sure if you can tell us that or not, but tell us which parts are definitely not true. Uh, personally, I think the or if you can tell us what's true, let us know that, too. [laughter] Personally, I believe the the two best movies, well, the best show that I've ever seen that reflects the work of my former colleagues uh is called The Americans. Uh it's uh it was on FX for a long time. I watched it. Yeah. And I I think I mean their their adviser on that show uh was a former case officer and uh the the trade craft and the the lifestyle of living undercover was is incredibly u accurate uh for the the work that I experienced.

[15:42] It's a movie or a It's a show. I think it was about four or five seasons. I'll go check it out. Uh but it it I mean it was uh probably 15 years ago that it concluded, but it is remarkable. I mean the act it's a slow burn and I would describe that as more accurate than Jason Bourne or Bond or whatever. Uh I mean it's it's a strategic game and and so you're many times looking for the long play uh in order to secure information or an operation uh securely and safely. Okay. You said that was the first one. What was the second one? Uh I mean I think I mean there's another one called the American with George Clooney. Okay. Uh um that I thought was pretty good. Um, it's more towards the end of his tenure, if you will. Uh, and but again, it's a slow burn. Uh, but it gets really into the character development and and operating, uh, you know, kind of in a national scene when you're a lone wolf. And I think that would describe it best. Uh, you are a lone wolf out there. Uh, as opposed to working with a team.

[16:47] Hypothetically, does it ever get as intense or dramatic as they make some of those shows look like? Like like does it ever get sometimes? Yeah. Yeah. Uh I mean there there are definitely moments where I knew who I was operating against but I was quite sure that uh there were others out there that I was unaware of and uh and you know because of the the characteristics of the mission. Um, I had to take a a even a higher level of protocol of safety for my own self, you know, for people back home. Uh, or uh or just for the the sanctity of of the work itself. Uh, because you know, some things are obvious, but you know, what can what can kill you is what you don't know or what you don't what you don't know that you don't know. And did you have to operate overseas too Yeah, the CIA doesn't operate domestically. So, and you were where? Uh, I mean I Arabic was my primary uh language of of use. So, that was where I was primarily working, but I did work um In these shows that John's referencing, movies, etc., inevitably, there is especially it seems like the case managers or whatever, they have a relationship, whether it's the Russian spy or the Middle Eastern spy. Is that a real thing?

[18:06] Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Uh many times, you know, it's it can be uh friendly, but it it's dangerous if you become friends. Uh because, you know, the mission is always to serve the United States and the United States people. Uh and and so if you start I mean you have to think of the other the in the best interest of the other person uh commonly, but you can't you can't sacrifice the mission for the person. And and so that was one of the aspects of the work that I think eventually broke me if you will and uh which caused me to leave also uh because it wasn't uh you know I love the the name of your podcast tales of of abundance and the idea of of flourishing comes to mind. Uh it is not a place of flourishing. I mean, there are some remarkable patriots that uh that I uh know that are still there and others that, you know, I don't know, but I know that they're remarkable patriots and human beings that work there. Um, but it is a incredibly challenging life. Uh, and I want to uh respect and honor uh all the work that they do. Um, those that genuinely serve the United States and the and the people that um you you were single at this time.

[19:22] I was single. Yeah. It'd be I can't imagine doing that with a family. Correct. And when I first got married, my wife would not in infrequently ask me, "Do you wish you still were a part of the CIA?" And my most frequent uh response or perhaps my only response was uh I mean there is no doubt that I would be a better officer than if we were married uh and I was in but it would be horrible for our marriage uh because there are too many times where I would have to leave her in the dark and you know either literally or figuratively like she would not know what I was doing. I couldn't tell her what I was doing. Uh and and then other times literally, you know, there are times that I would have to go and do work uh with very little goodbye. Uh that's not as common as probably most people think, but it is a part of the job. Um and [snorts] and we have a very, you know, close relationship. we met each other later in life and and you know trust and um you know friendliness and love is the bedrock of our marriage.

[20:36] Uh and so in addition to our our shared faith and so if if there's a whole part of my life that is you know partitioned off then it is challenging to uh to continue the have that as your like is it is it a dangerous job like it's portrayed to be like your life is on the line like did you ever fear for your life in that process? Yes. I mean it's I wouldn't say as it's as dangerous as you know born or whatever uh make it out to be. I mean, I wasn't constantly hunted or whatever. Uh, but I was consistently and constantly aware of the risk to me and my loved ones and my colleagues if I revealed uh class either classified information or my identity because I was working undercover. And so um and and it was of utmost importance to make sure that um my cover was protected uh so that I can continue to do the work but I could also protect myself and my loved Does that mean you worked for some other department of the government for some period of time?

[21:43] Yeah, there's multiple different ways that the um that people undercover work. yeah, s I could go on this. We'll have to bring him back. buy him coffee and we'll have to go. I mean, this is so interesting to me. Just Is Is there a particular story you can you can tell us that, you know, without it revealing classified information or whatever where you felt like you were in danger or just I mean, is there is there a specific instant? Uh, you know, I can I can talk in some uh generalities about one specific one. Uh, and so uh you know, I was I'm I'm not going to mention the country. I'm not going to mention, you know, even the continent. Uh but the goal was the goal of the mission uh was to uh determine if a country had uh weapons of mass destruction program, an active program. Uh and and so I had to create a cover. I had to create a work uh that was consistent with me being having the opportunity to plausibly and innocently interview uh interview individuals that might have access to uh their weapons of mass destruction uh this countries. And so we knew because of conferences and academic uh opportunities that people uh would travel out of that country into friendly countries. And and so I would I created this uh you know this story in order to interview in this individual and I needed to make sure that he was not he did not suspect me of my true affiliation. Uh but rather uh everything could be uh proven on the innocence of the notion. Okay. The notional innocence I guess. and and so you know I leveraged an individual that was working at a conference with this uh this guy from this country uh and he was one of the you know the smartest individuals and uh scientists and one of the few individuals that we thought that that would have access to weapons of mass destruction. So I enter into the country uh under uh you know a fictitious and uh and um I I have already begun my communication with uh with that the gobetween and that gobetween had no clue who I really was. Uh but that gave me a cutout in order to increase my authenticity and my integrity uh in the eyes of this person who would immediately suspect me because people like me don't just randomly go up to people like him from the country that he was from. So he's acting as uh you know my uh authenticator if you will and I'm working there. But because, and this is what I was referencing earlier, I knew that the country that I was in was most likely watching me, but I was also quite uh confident that the country he was from also had his own surveillance that was watching him in addition to perhaps one or two other countries. uh because of the nature of this individual and his work and the danger of uh what if this country actually had nuclear weapons or a biomedical or you know um bioweapons program and so I was operating you know a spy v spy v spy v spy I mean it was probably like 4D chess happening and uh thankfully uh you know I had multiple meetings everything was you know above ground uh you know everything was consistent with uh uh you know who I said I was but I was also able to achieve the mission that the that the government gave me to do. Uh and uh thankfully uh you know there have been no retributions or any uh risk either from then or afterwards um because of that that mission. But that that's an example of and I know that there there wasn't there was a lot of ambiguity in that story but by necessity this this is a lot of stress for a human like a lot if you really think about it like how does that change you like what is the what are the consequences of that I mean either personally or in general but what I mean I think more interestingly you like what did this change you fundamentally belief systems what What was the impact?

[26:15] Yeah, that's a great question. I had previously mentioned how important my faith was to me and even after the first crisis of faith uh you know I I had returned uh to my faith in Jesus and uh but I after that first crisis I was more skeptical uh and and so um and a little bit more worldly if you will. And so when I enter into training for the agency uh you know I was on the farm I was on the bus uh going into training and I remember saying a prayer said you know Lord rescue me from this life if I don't uphold the standard that you've called me to and because I was undercover for such a significant amount of time and uh and doing many different types of work under multiple different types of cover uh then I essentially I eventually forgot forgot who I was um my identity. I forgot um uh you know the importance of of Christ to me. I had not attended church for a very long period of time. I essentially became a practicing agnostic even though I had a lot of mental um knowledge and faith. Uh but there was no practical application of that. And and so coming out of one extended period of time, I uh you know, I would start attending church on Sundays, but then the rest of the week I was you know, for for lack of a better um you know, way of saying it. I was more at home in a strip club than I was in church. uh because it first became you know essential part of different missions, different people that I was trying to uh entice to work for the United States government really wanted to go to different strip clubs or wanted to go to different places and my goal was to put them in a place and that they'd feel comfortable and eventually give me the information that I needed.

[28:09] So it was for the sake of the mission but eventually like if uh you know sin is a slippery slope and that is something that I enjoyed myself and so that became some a place that I was like okay I can just go and I can hang out and there's no expectation on me and I can just talk to whomever I want to talk to and I don't you know I have to be careful but I don't need to you know um necessarily like be concerned if you know I'm this person misrepresents or whatever it might be. And so, you know, Sunday might have been church, but then the rest of the week might have been, you know, strip club or working abroad or, you know, you know, happy hours or whatever it might have been. And and then God was consistent to that original prayer and uh and I eventually got fired by the CIA because they accused me of stealing money from the United States government. And I, you know, showed them all the receipts. I proved my innocence in multiple different ways. I asked to be polygraphed and all these things. And so, but they said nope. And so they they fired me and and I every time I considered the injustice and the unfairness and I was a you know flag waving patriot and a true believer and all those type of things and a core aspect of my being my patriotism was ripped away from me because I felt unjustly accused and and then uh and but every single time I pondered that reality uh of of that injustice or my separation from arguably the coolest job that you could potentially ever imagine.

[29:44] I just kept remembering. I was like, I'm God saying to me, I'm being faithful to that prayer. I'm being faithful to that prayer. And and then, you know, it was about a year and a half ago that uh you know, after multiple years of many conversations with the CIA accounting, they eventually said, "Oh, you're right. I had to teach them how to do clandestine accounting and a whole bunch of other things uh that I needed to do as part of that work. They finally cleared me and was like, "Oh, no. It was all our far fault. I'm truly sorry." I was like, "Really? That that's it?" And but at that point, when I finally got cleared of all those false charges of, you know, stealing $20,000 from the government, um my my, you know, I had a a beautiful wife. I had three children. And it was such an a a radical change from the desperate lonely lifestyle of clandestine operations in faraway lands of speaking you know different languages or not speaking the local language or whatever it might been and just the you know the flourishing and the abundance that I had been awarded uh by no you know I didn't deserve it but it was remarkable change and it it did I it wasn't lost on me on on having you know two beautiful daughters and an incredible son and now a a marriage of almost 11 years.

[31:15] I I don't I know we need to get other topics eventually, but I I think about like you know language skills. I'm assuming the CIA teaches you how to deal with stress in those situations. Like sure what are some of the skills that are like everyday skills that you brought forward from that part of your life that you either still use today have today? like because it sounds like a lot of good came out of it as difficult as it was. I mean one uh I believe is the importance of oxygen to our systems. I mean the importance of breathing uh you know as a teacher and teaching my students or my basketball players uh in chaotic situations you know first of all It seems like high school teaching might be as difficult as what you were doing. It's a different but kind of stress different level of difficulty. I mean different type of difficulty but it is a challenge. Uh and and so yeah I I think just the the importance of breathing in the midst of chaos because breathing centers yourself. And then what I tell my basketball players specifically uh and this is something that I learned from my dad but also in the middle of my work is that if you are focused on the stress then that typically increases the angst and the stress. But if you are uh if your mind can go somewhere else uh that in a place that is you know something that is beautiful or good or true then uh that might then that lowers your you know blood pressure lowers you know your your heart rate and and it brings peace to your mind first and then and then your body and there's a biochemical response uh you know positive response to meditation and so I you know for the sake of my basketball team and you know I'm kind of jumping around my life right now, but for the sake of my basketball team, when they're shooting a free throw or it's an incredibly intense situation for an important game, said, "Okay, you need to go to a specific Bible verse that you can ponder, that you can meditate on.

[33:07] You just say that over and over again." And if you're not a Christian or if that's not where you're at in your faith, then you just think about something that is important to you. your your relationship with your girlfriend, your relationship with your parents, your you know your best friend, something that is outside of this place that is you know good, true or beautiful. And if if that is where your heart rests and that's where your mind goes, then you know the the stress of the situation uh dissipates. Uh and that's uh and I think that's an incredibly important skill that I remember from that time. And and then the second part of it is triage. You know, just uh you know, having two daughters and appreciating the Frozen movies. Uh you know, like the second one, uh Elsa and Anna, you know, do the next right thing and just keep focusing when you're in the middle of, you know, incredibly chaotic warlike situation, then you just need to focus on the next right thing. And eventually the next thing will come become obvious and then the next thing after that and then eventually you'll recognize that you just ran a marathon through the stress. Uh but you weren't, you know, focusing on the 26.2. You were just focusing on the next step.

[34:19] Similar to like clinical therapy, like the stuff you're talking about gets talked about in therapy all the time. Are you even allowed to go to a therapist if you're a former CIA employ? Oh, yes. Okay. Yeah. And I I did actually upon my depart departure from the government. Did they do they assign like a CIA approved therapist? They did at the time. Yeah. Which I, you know, and again, of course, you don't know what their all if what their ulterior motives were. Uh, you [laughter] know, That's great. You serve the you serve the government. You serve the CIA if you work for the CIA. It's not all, you know. So, eyes wide open. I'm not I'm not Yes. Absolutely. I'm not confident that that therapist was working on, you know, primarily only for or even secondarily. I have so many ethical questions around that, but we'll Yeah, that not for today. That Yeah. All I think John has more questions, but I I want to go back to going to church, then on the week you're out manipulating, using, right, doing, and and for patriotic duty, right? All justifiable and and the ends justify the means argument. And we could we could have a whole discussion on that, right?

[35:27] That's right. But are those two things like is it even possible to really be the good Christian and do like like yes it needs to be done most people would argue and can those two things coexist? Is that even possible? I you know I think that's a that is the heart of the question when you are pursuing ethical uh you know power ethically uh and you know if you perceive power to be a tool for good then there is an opportunity uh for espionage or military force or whatever. uh if power is the end then now you are the essence of life itself and I think that's an important conversation for our current current policy makers uh right now uh power is a tool for good uh in the same way that money can be a tool or any other aspect of things I mean uh it can't be the end uh and I think one of the the risks of life is substituting tactics for strategy or strategy for goals. uh and it you have to orient your life in uh with an appropriate end and then from that end you form the strategy and then you have the tactics because if you flip it then uh you're at risk of losing your soul, your identity, uh your sanity.

[37:10] Yeah. Uh, and so I know, you know, there's, uh, Jim Olsen, my former professor at Texas&M's Bush School of Government, and he was, I mean, he's a legend in the CIA. I mean, he was a, uh, the station chief for Moscow during the Cold War. I mean, this guy is uh, I mean, truly a legendary uh, individual. And I mean, he's written a book uh, he's a devout um, Christian, a devout Catholic, uh, and he's written a book on on ethics. And so people that have worked a lot longer than I did or have pondered that while while remaining ethical because I didn't I lost my ethics. Uh I I would submit to them uh and their authority on that question and their wisdom because I couldn't. Um and part of that is because I didn't have a strong partner like like I do now with my wife. Um, and that's where I go back to if I was still in as a married person, then I would, there's no doubt that I'd be stronger because I'd have that accountability. I would have that um that sense of self and identity and grounding even when uh chaos occurred.

[38:24] Uh she would be the rock. Uh even if I was doubting my own faith or my own self or the mission or whatever it might have been. Um but I have a number of friends who remained in incred like you know have tremendous integrity still and they're still working uh for the government and and mo and I believe every single person that I know that I trust their integrity is married to an incredible spouse. U and I mean some are Christians, some are not. Uh uh I did recognize while I was in there's uh there's a lot about Christianity that I don't uh appreciate the practice of Christianity. Uh and I couldn't trust Christians more than my fellow colleagues. I knew my colleagues had my back. I wasn't and I'm not always convinced that my fellow believers in Christ have my back. Wow, that's deep. So many powerful things you just said. I'm going to go back and listen to that. I mean about [snorts] strategy tactics and that's amazing. Randy, there might be a place for a break. I want I know we want to get into ancient history and and talking about teaching and I'm super excited to hear more about how your past has and the past come together in the classroom. I think uh learning history is such an important part and I was just sharing with my family. I wish I was a better student of history in in school and now I'm interested in it. But I think that's maybe for after the break.

[39:46] All right. Well, let's go to the break and jump into that when we get back. Listeners, welcome back. Uh we are still here with Josh Graham and I know when we went to the break we said we were going to get into teaching and coaching um but you told us a story during the break that I think makes a perfect transition into that. So do you want to just quickly update the listeners on what you just told John and I during the break? Sure. So when I left the CIA, I was in this crisis, personal crisis, faith crisis, identity crisis, and uh I had been overseas for an extended period of time or more at home overseas. Uh and especially in the Middle East, I had a great affinity for uh different uh parts of the Middle East and especially the Mediterranean. I think the Mediterranean Sea and the people that live around the Mediterranean are some of the most incredible cultures and peoples and So, if you've had if you've seen Hurt Locker, uh at the end of Hurt Locker, there is a scene where the main character is in the serial aisle after returning from Iraq and he was just looking at all the choices and he was paralyzed by indecision. And there were a number of times coming back uh from the field that I felt like that and wanting a greater simplicity of life that overseas living commonly provides to the you know abundance here in the United States. And so, uh, while I was trying to figure out if I wanted to, you know, return to my Christian faith, if I wanted to be close to family or try and escape from, uh, my past, uh, then I just, you know, chose to delay that decision and live on the Mediterranean coast in the country of Lebanon. And the Lebanese people are remarkable people. I mean, really special people. Uh, they're naturally entrepreneurial. Uh, they're used to living in a diverse society. uh with different, you know, types of Muslims and as well as Christians. Uh and and so I went to live in Beirut and I worked for a Lebanese hospitality company uh and uh you know practiced Arabic and took Arabic and lived with uh different Lebanese individuals and and so I was there for a year while applying to different graduate schools because it's hard to market, you know, espionage skills when you're trying to transition into a new type of life. And and so knowing that I needed to rebrand myself by going to graduate school or believing I needed to then uh so I applied to all my graduate schools while living in Beirut and Spy 2002 2006.

[42:21] Exactly. And so you know that doesn't necessarily help with sales. It might me get get me in the deal in the door but not close the deal. Uh and you know yes I can sell because I can you know convince someone to spy for the United States government. and uh but it's different if you're trying to reach a bottom line than if you're you know doing espionage. So I went and lived in Beirut for a year and during that year I finally realized that uh that my faith is important to me. My family is important to me. The importance of community is vital to my flourishing. And so I chose to return here to Texas uh for my graduate school instead of staying on the east coast. And and so I, you know, I'm a bit of a uh I guess I do things uh in unique ways, if you will. And so I I attended both the University of Texas here in Austin in addition to Texas A&M University at the same time. I would drive back and forth between the cities. That's an identity problem all by right? And so I'm definitely a gigum uh in this in this great rivalry. uh uh but uh yeah I I attend classes Monday through Thursday in College Station and then I'd drive over for Friday Saturday classes uh in here and the work was to to figure out uh how to create new businesses around new technologies uh and and uh and then export those technologies um and either with you know small and mediumsiz companies or licensing them to a big company like Dell or Texas Instruments or whatever.

[43:54] And and so both programs were remarkable. uh you know uh I did you know put up the hookum uh on my graduation day and told all my friends and classmates this might be the only time you see hookum here but uh but yeah I I that that time in graduate school grounded me and uh the process of the graduate education uh you know eventually introduced me to my future wife and then also bitcoin uh which has also become an important part of uh you know how I see the world and perceive um econom economics and justice and a number of other beautiful things. All right, so we're going to transition to teaching. Although my brain is my brain is a little bit broken about the whole eggy longhorn thing. John, [laughter] as giddy as John is about the CIA part, I my brain is is is broken over that. But uh so the transition to teaching and initially I was like, well that's an interesting transition from the CIA to teaching and coaching. But it makes more sense now. That was that was what you started out, right? So what ancient history?

[44:59] This is fascinating. I think there's a lot that can be done there. So you're teaching ancient history from what what time frames is that? I mean what like how ancient? Sure. So the school that I teach at is called Veraritoss Academy and it's a unique uh place. It's a classical Christian uh um you know university model school. uh and unlike many other classical Christian schools uh we partner with families uh to educate our our children. So on Tuesdays and Thursdays, the day that I don't teach, I teach my my children at home uh through their you know their elementary curriculum. Uh and so it's a very it's an a beautiful community where everyone's kind of pursuing these ideas Hold on, hold on. Go back to So wait, so I'm not sure that's clear to me. Monday, Wednesday, Friday, you're teaching at the school, Tuesday, Thursday, you're teaching your At home. So I would assume the other parents are doing the same thing. So it's a combination of school and home homeschooling.

[46:04] Interesting. I've never heard this. And you know many of the parents are you know the the most commonly the father is you know working in his work and the mother is homeschool teaching uh and and there are a few other fathers that homeschool teach. I share my responsibility about 50/50 with my wife. My wife is an ER physician and so she, you know, kind of places her shifts around my work schedule and then sometimes she's able to to teach our children and other times I teach our children on Tuesday Thursdays. I am fascinated by this as well. Tell like what is the what is the concept here or just it's it's so they get the best of both worlds. Is that the I I believe so. I I mean I think ultimately it's the idea that the family is the best context for children and the parent should be the primary influence upon the children. And so uh you know there are you know there's a number of people that are friends of ours that homeschool their their kids, but there's a lot of others that want more time with their kids, but they don't necessarily want to be the only homeschooler and they want to be part of a larger community. and and so uh so it started off almost like a co-op uh with the founders about 17 18 years ago and uh but now it's you know we've grown remarkably uh over that time and yes and so uh from preschool through uh 7th grade the uh the students stay two to three days at home and then beginning in eighth grade they go every day and I teach nth grade so my students are on campus every day uh Monday through Friday and it's university model so they're with me for one class on Monday, Wednesday, Friday and then they'll take you know English literature on Tuesday, Thursday or whatever.

[47:53] Why have I never heard of this? Is this something that's common? Is this a a really unique program or widespread? I it's fairly unique. Uh the classical uh education movement began approximately 30 years ago. uh the idea of of you know remembering the tools of learning and and then it's greatly increased in popularity over the last decade I would say uh and an explosive growth really in the last 5 years uh and then so the classical education opponent is interesting and important but then the the partnership with parents is also incredibly important uh and So uh but I mean it was providential that I even found that. I mean I was you know doing you know foreign market entry uh coming out of graduate school and technology you know consulting and then God just reminded me that I loved working with teenagers and I loved coaching basketball and so I coached basketball for one year before and while still consulting and then I moved completely into teaching uh because it was such a remarkable experience for that one year transition.

[49:07] Can we dive into the actual the ancient history part is such such a cool topic. I think you know I in high school in college I had no appreciation for history and what what the importance of history was but now I find myself trying to consume as much about history and be partly because I'm just really interested in history and partly because I want to know what it means for us today. And you know, people have said those who don't understand history are doomed to repeat it. And there's all these great books about the fourth turning and all the different cycles that happen. So, assuming you know a ton about the the very specific rise and fall of empires throughout ancient Um, what do you see as parallels with today's world? Like are there whether they're concerning or stark or exciting? Really looking for whatever whatever I don't want to color the perspective. what's your perspective on, you know, ancient history versus what what you see happening today? So, yes, I begin ancient Mesopotamia and, uh, you know, this is after a week of looking at, you know, the Garden of Eden and the idea of So, remind us how far back the Mesopotamia is. And so, uh, so we really have the agricultural revolution, uh, beginning approximately, you know, 8,000 BC. uh and and so uh which is coincidentally around the same time that many believe that the Garden of Eden existed uh and so uh which is fascinating to ponder if Adam and Eve introduced you know you know agriculture to Mesopotamia and so uh but then you have you know you have the rise and fall of the Sumerian citystates uh you know and and then you know there's others like Erdo and and so these are all small city states states that can be anywhere. Basically 5,000 people was the threshold to be, you know, to become a city and each of them had their own kings and they were all priests uh to uh you know, be the go-between with the gods and man. And then we transition into ancient Egypt uh which is a fascinating story of the beginnings of bureaucracy and uh the military-industrial complex and uh and then the you know the waxing and waning of empires and the time periods of chaos that are known as the intermediate periods between different dynastic periods. Uh and then we go into the ancient Hebrews and the idea of morality uh introduced to law and being accountable to law. uh and then uh following ancient Israelites or the ancient Hebrews, we jump into the ancient Greeks and the importance of uh you know the citystate and freedom and the role of freedom and then eventually the philosophy replacing mythology and then following the ancient Greeks and Alexander the Great, we look at ancient Rome and you know there are so many similarities to uh the Roman Empire to us now and uh and then uh finally after the fall of Rome Rome, you have well you have the splitting of Rome with the Eastern Roman Empire being focused in Constantinople and the Western Roman Empire remaining in Rome. The the Western Roman Empire ends the Eastern Roman Empire into kind of AD Yeah. 476. Yep. And so and the but the Eastern Roman Empire continues for another thousand years. And I don't think that's commonly appreciated that they considered themselves Romans. you know it was historians about 400 years ago that created the term Byzantine Empire. Uh but they truly practiced Roman culture and you know they had converted to you know Christianity uh you know with um you know with the idea of Constantine uh and then and but that's when you have the rise of the Roman Catholic Church and the medieval ages uh of Western Europe and so I cover up until 1300. So I I cover, you know, depends on when you think that, you know, history began. Then I I cover 5,000 years. Um, plus or minus. But, you know, history is recorded time.

[53:09] And so there's a number there's a long time before history. And I think that's an important designator. If history is recorded time, then it it characterizes a field of study versus, you know, something more relied upon mythology or story or narrative or archaeology. Yeah. So, we have prehistoric times. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And so, I mean, what about you say there's you see the parallels from the Roman Empire until now. What are what are some of the most encouraging and some of the most like parallels you see? Sure. So, you know, there's a long debate in our current political system. Are we an empire or a republic? I mean, some people say we're a democracy, but we're not. And so, uh, so are we a empire or a republic? And, you know, I would make the strong argument for the last 50 plus years, maybe even longer, 70 years, uh, that we are an empire and and so post World War II.

[54:11] Just explain that. Explain that more. Why why would you say that? Sure. So, you know, following World War II, you have uh following World War II, we have, you know, uh the rest of the world has been decimated and it's the uh United States government that rebuilds the world and through the tools of the US dollar uh the rest of the world is able to come alive again by focusing on what they all can uh you know, become expertise at, you know, German engineering and uh you know Chinese eventually the you know they become the man the factory of the world etc. So and then you know we get uh adventurous in our foreign policy with Vietnam and then sometime during that course we start spending so much money that we can't fund our adventures uh through just means and therefore we separate away from gold in 1971 and instead of you know the transparent uh arrangement that had come out of World War II with the dollar being backed by gold. The US dollar was then backed by, you know, the US military, if you will, or the full faith and trust of the United States government. And that can be debated any given day on on how trustworthy the United States government is. And but it's truly the really what they what they I think what some I don't know that I don't want to speak policy but there are people that would say that that really means trust the US Navy to keep trade lanes open across the world so that we can keep trade the way we want we want it to be.

[55:51] And you know and you know as I tell my my students we practice gunboat diplomacy all the time. you know, well, you know, we have we send an aircraft carrier group or uh outside of Riad and we call up the Saudis over the last 30 years and say, "Hey, we we need cheaper oil." And they'll say, "No, we need to keep it above this price." Oh, and then the president tells them to look out their window and then, you know, there's a um you know, a naval strike group um from their window and they decide to lower the cost of oil. uh and so you know the force of the US military has preserved the system uh that so much good has come from but there's also been a great amount of injustice uh that has occurred uh because there's no longer transparency between uh the you know the US of the US dollar and uh and the reason why the dollar is supposed to be used um and so that's very similar to the Roman Empire uh you know there the Roman Republic is split into three different epochs. You know you have the early Roman Republic where you have the struggle of the orders and and that's the beauty of the Roman Republic. You have the plebs or the common people fighting for justice and the elites trying to protect their power, but they keep coming to the negotiating table and and negotiating in good faith for the good of themselves.

[57:21] But then it becomes the good of Rome. And that begins, you know, in 509 when the kingdom ends and the republic begins. And then the struggle of the orders continues for centuries. And they eventually the pleb is able to marry, you know, a patrician, you know, which is the elite or uh and you know, we weren't we weren't allowed to uh marry interraially in this country until about 60 years ago, right? And so it's commonly the same thing. uh there's so many different similarities between the process of civil rights in our own country and the uh the pursuit of justice by the plebs uh in ancient Roman Republic and then eventually uh the middle Roman Republic you have the great expanse of power uh with when they took on Carthage and the famous Hannibal you know taking the elephants over the Alps and but they expanded so rapidly across the Mediterranean they went from an Italian, you know, kingdom essentially uh under, you know, a republic government to a global power, a hegeimon across the Mediterranean in the period of, you know, essentially a century, which was very quick in those times. And that flooded slaves into the Roman civilization so much that the common people lost work. And because they couldn't have work, then they increasingly revolted or they had to become ultra loyal to one individual, one general, uh, you know, whether it was Marius or Sola or eventually Julius Caesar. And and then you have this time period where might makes right. And that's how I, you know, characterize it for my students. If you were mighty enough, you could declare what was right. And it it was no longer the morality of honor and valor by the old Roman Republic. It was just the amount of swords and the discipline of those swords that you could employ to put yourself on the throne, if you will. and that that might makes right quickly uh goes to Julius Caesar where he eventually you know acts like a a king but he doesn't want to claim that kingship because from legend anyone who you know wants to claim a kingship can be assassinated by any Roman with uh with impunity with perfect justice and so he never claimed it but we all know the story you know famously written by Shakespeare that he is uh assassinated by his closest confidants and by his you know political rivals but then that ushers in the empire but it wasn't very long when Emperor Nero you know he's famous for burning Christians and using Christians as this is where Roman candle comes from lightening us and using us as as you know lights for dinner parties uh but but also clipping uh coins and removing gold out of coins uh because he wanted to continue to go on adventures And so this is uh you know one of the more you know famous stories of inflation or the you know the dilution of the monetary value of the currency uh for the sake of power. And so power became the pursuit instead of justice or whatever based going back to the you know five centuries before uh with Rome which aligns with money printing today.

[1:00:48] That's right. And and so so Rome, you know, quickly descended into uh a a place of corruption and injustice and the pursuit of power at and wealth as opposed to, you know, serving and um you know, civil rights and liberty and law. and the law was replaced by power and and so that is an integral part of the current policym and the political uh experiences that you know contemporary Americans are having right now and then it falls because I mean there was one period where there were uh there were 50 emperors in approximately 100 years and it was just and they were again it was just might makes right if they had the strongest army. They would come in and remove one emperor and then put their favorite general on the throne and then uh the army or the ptorian guard which is like the secret service uh was able to remove whoever they wanted to and then put someone else on the throne that they hoped to control or uh influence or was in line with their motives and uh and so it eventually falls in 476 and there's a lot of reasons for it. It's hotly debated, you know, the fall of Rome. I mean, I I'm biased, but I, you know, I think it um partially because the lessons of corruption are so vital to the integrity of a people that if we don't learn the lessons of that Rome taught us, then we will definitely I mean we already are with money printing and other aspects you know uh you know why did we go into Iraq or you know choose any other foreign venture.

[1:02:36] Is it reversible? like have there been have there been uh or like any kind any type of you know um are there any examples of success? I yeah well it turn like once you start to see those problems are there any any civilizations that have come back from Rome did with Constantine so kind of took a dip and then came back time frame for Constantine. Uh so that that's the early 400s. uh and so he uh it was called the tetrarchy. There are four different rulers uh and they split the the empire in two because it was so large and so unmanageable uh that both had the equivalent of a president and vice president or an emperor and a vice emperor and and so you know Constantine you know comes down from England and through France and eventually you know has the famous battle at the Milvin bridge uh where he sees the vision in the sky and uh supposedly God you know gives him this vision that if you put a cross on all of your soldiers uh shields and you fight under our my name, then the throne will be yours. And so he does that and he eventually converts to Christianity, but not until his deathbed, but he makes Christianity legal again and or for the first time he stops the persecution of Christians. He uh allows for the first time in my awareness since Cyrus since the ancient Persians uh there was a great u freedom of religion in a in a powerful empire and and so it didn't matter if you were a pagan worshipper or if you were a Christian or what any other of the you know multitude of religions in ancient Rome. But he with the edict of Milan in you know 4 413 AD 413 and edict of toleration a year or two before that you have uh you know Christianity is now legal and and so uh you introduce the idea of morality and virtue into this power system and eventually because the emperor uh you know claimed Christianity then it became popular to be a Christian and it became popular to at least appreciate the gospel and regardless of the reality of the truth in those people's lives. They if they if they practiced good then good would come out regardless of the reason.

[1:05:08] And there's a lot of people that now or back then that use Christianity for their own power. But but still if you learn how to practice good and loving your neighbor and serving others and that becomes integral to society as opposed to coin clipping and the pursuit of power and whatever else might be, then the fundamental value system shifts and the foundation becomes strong again. But he recognized that Rome was too corrupt. And so he needed to move the capital from Rome, you know, about a thousand miles east approximately, I don't know, to what was Byzantine or Byzantium. And that was a small village in a beautiful location. Uh and and just poured tons of money into it, making it one of the most beautiful cities in the world. And it became the center of power. And so and that's why it lasts for another thousand years. But the corruption within Rome didn't end. They couldn't rip it out. And eventually because they betrayed all the immigrants that had come in be, you have all these German immigrants. They said, "We'll promise you citizenship if you join the army and we'll promise you, you know, wealth and prosperity and civil liberties if you become Roman." Well, they just betrayed them. And so if you betray a whole bunch of, you know, trained mercenaries, then eventually the mercenaries revolt and that the German barbarians sacked Rome three different times and even killed an emperor before the final death nail in 476 and that's you know the collapse of Rome and then that eventually leads into what's commonly called the dark ages or the medieval time period. But Rome, you know, they they had to physically leave and start again.

[1:07:00] If you were going to compare Rome to the US and in a timeline where we are today, where where would you put that timeline in Roman history? I mean, I I think time is compressed. And so, you know, I I would I would ponder that it's somewhere, you know, post Nero uh with the idea of, you know, maybe even post, you know, there's a time period of five good emperors with Marcus Aurelius uh the famous Stoic philosopher uh and maybe after that um but I I think that we still have it's somewhere between that time period and it really depends upon uh you Some people have said, you know, coming out of this, you know, fourth turning, if you will, uh, we might enter into the fourth American republic, you know, uh, and so if the first is before the Civil War and then Civil War to, you know, the World War, you know, two and then World War II until now, this is the third attempt at, uh, this American experiment. Uh, and so if we remember the ideas of justice and individual freedom and liberty and local community, then we have a chance at flourishing for the fourth American republic. Um, but I think it really does instead of like, you know, moving Washington DC to somewhere else, I think it's rather the concept of forcing localities to increase their own political weight and power. So all the state capitals um you know strengthening their own um the federal republic as it was designed by the framers is what you're really That's right. Yeah.

[1:08:41] Yep. And and so you you suck money out of DC and you give it to you know Sacramento or Austin or Boisey or How does that h how does that realistically happen do you think? Does like I guess maybe my bigger question is can that happen without a total collapse? Because we've watched You know, we watched recently Elon Musk right after he got done catching a rocket with a pair of chopsticks and accomplishing all these amazing things, came in, donated his time, did all this, found all this waste, fraud, whatever. But yet, I don't know that it's going to do any good because Congress isn't going to ratify cutting that spending. And there's there's just a we all agree it doesn't matter if people are Republican, Democrat, independent, there's a lot of waste in Washington. Right. And we all agree it's there. Yet I don't personally see a lot of hope of them cutting it and and they're just not will they're willing to let the country burn is my opinion versus do what's right.

[1:09:48] And I know, look, my escape hatch is Bitcoin as my option to play in it, play a different game, but realistically I I want to be wrong here. I really, really, really want to be wrong, but I don't I don't see the incentives. Do do you see an an out for for the country that how they can how we can avoid this? I think the only way to avoid it is to stop caring about DC and increase our care for our neighbor and and so regardless of that neighbor and I think it's important to recognize the humanity of every individual and where you know the as much as I might disagree with uh the ICE protesters of of Los Angeles, at least having a respect and uh appreciation for their perspective and then a willingness to have respectful conversations without the goal of changing minds, but just having uh the goal of [snorts] um recognizing the humanity and the beauty of each different person. Because if we create more relationships, then we have a reason to fight for the present. But if we hate the present so much, then we desire to burn everything Wow, that's pretty heavy.

[1:11:28] It's a good place to, you know, maybe wrap it up and invite him back for another show because I I have so many more questions about Bitcoin and and how to how Yeah. I mean, we have a couple things. We haven't even got into running for Congress, but I think I do. I think this is a good place. Um I mean, I mean, Josh, will you come back? That's I mean, can we get you to come back and do this again? I would love to. I mean, y'all are fun and I enjoy these conversations. I'm not teaching presently, so I get to hang out with my kids and and uh uh read a lot. Um but yes, I would love to. You are running for Congress. I did. Did Okay. I I ran as an independent in the last uh campaign cycle. Uh and that was intentional uh to be an independent. And people want to learn more about you. Where do they go? So, I mean, I'm primarily active on um Twitter or X uh under uh it's called Real Grambo. I had an old friend who called me Granbo, and so I just took that handle. Yeah. Yeah.

[1:12:29] Real Grabo. All right. Real Grammarbo on X. I love All right. Well, thank you so much. Um listeners, as always, please subscribe, tell your friends, download, all that good stuff. Find us on social media, and look for the next episode with Josh, Yes, it's coming. And yes, definitely. So, thank thank you Josh. Thank you listeners. Everybody have a fantastic Amazing. Thanks, Josh. Thank you. It's been a privilege.

From CIA to Classroom: Josh Graham on Identity, Brotherhood, and a Life of Purpose