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Wrestling with Faith

Episode 30 · 30 June 2025 · 51 min

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Wrestling With Faith: A Skeptic Asks His Friends Why They Believe

Wrestling with faith is personal. Anthony Marino, who has lost his faith, interviews Dr. John Oberg and Randy Lorensen about why they believe, and the three talk openly about doubt, miracles and religion.

John is Catholic. He talks about Church teaching, how a loss shaped his path back to faith, prayer and reading Scripture, and moments he can only describe as miracles. Randy describes a less religious upbringing and a belief in God as an infinite intelligence, and how hearing Bible verses at a funeral changed something for him.

Anthony asks the skeptic's questions: why people need belief, whether it comes from fear, whether Jesus was real, and how to reconcile faith with the harm done in religion's name. They talk about judgment and forgiveness, hypocrisy, and the fact that every group has good and bad people.

Nobody is trying to change anyone's mind. They close with what faith gives them day to day, and what it means to keep asking the next question.

Losing Faith, Doubt and Why People Believe in God

What you'll discover:

  • A skeptic's questions for two friends who believe
  • What Catholic teaching says, and how John came back to his faith
  • Randy's view of God as an infinite intelligence
  • Miracles, prayer and the "God hole"
  • When religion is misused, and how to think about hypocrisy
  • Talking about faith without trying to change minds

Timestamps

  • [00:00] Welcome: faith from different perspectives
  • [01:59] Anthony interviews John and Randy
  • [03:00] Catholic teaching and the catechism
  • [04:56] John's path to faith
  • [06:54] Moments that felt like miracles
  • [09:49] Prayer and reading the Bible
  • [12:47] Randy's journey
  • [15:45] Randy on miracles
  • [16:45] God as an infinite intelligence
  • [19:46] Bible verses at a funeral
  • [23:42] Why do people need belief?
  • [24:41] The "God hole"
  • [25:46] When religion is misused
  • [28:43] The cold analogy
  • [31:37] Why do we need religion?
  • [33:33] John on returning to Catholicism and the Trinity
  • [35:30] Anthony opens up
  • [37:27] "You only believe because you're afraid"
  • [38:25] Was Jesus real?
  • [39:24] Judgment, forgiveness and hypocrisy
  • [43:14] Good and bad people in every group
  • [46:11] Faith as comfort
  • [48:10] Taking the next step
  • [49:11] Wanting proof in a data-driven world
  • [50:11] What's the next question? Wrap-up

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About the hosts

This is a hosts-only episode with no guest: Randy Lorensen, Dr. John Oberg and Anthony Marino. (Host bios are on the host pages linked below.)

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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:02] really going to be a journey into faith and exploring faith from different perspectives and Anthony uh you know is asking a lot of questions and you know curiosity and kind of on his own journey and asking about John's journey and my journey and u I just think you'll find it interesting the different perspectives and some of the places where John and I have gotten to the same place but we got there very different ways and u you know there's similarities And there's differences. Abundance. We're going to do something a little different today. Um John's with me as always and also Anthony frequent uh you know the the third chair here. And Anthony wanted to just talk about religion and faith and uh and different perspectives on it. So Anony's going to kind of drive and just dig into some of his curiosities and questions. And uh really it's just going to be three friends having a discussion about really deep, really personal to a lot of people, their faith and their beliefs.

[01:05] And uh so listeners, I hope you enjoy this and I hope you take something out of this that helps you on your own spiritual journey. So Anthony, what's let's go into your curiosity. Yeah, thanks Randy. Um my curiosity stems from um at the present time I've seemed I've lost my faith and I really don't have um I don't follow a particular religion and I've got some beliefs that may may or may not be uncomfortable for some to to talk about. So, what I thought I could do was in a sense interview John and Randy about their journey and what brought them to where they are today. Uh maybe some of their experiences prior to where they are today if they were vastly different. Uh and hear from them uh what their journey's been about and and why they're where they are and what they believe. um and just kind of have a conversation about it with with a goal well with the goal to maybe you know give me reason to doubt my lack of belief and my lack of faith.

[02:16] Yeah. You know I think that's a really helpful like starting point, right? Like like knowing that like hey like I want I want I want to know why I could believe is what I'm hearing. Yeah. Okay. Fair. That's a fair it's a fair question. Yeah. So I want to ask you John um to define it a little bit to defi define what faith is or what religion is or isn't um is there a definition or is it a feeling? Is it a set of rules? Oh yeah. Yeah. That's great. Look, I I think there's like the separation of church and state is one definition of religion and then there's like organized religion, spirituality, all like for me, I'm Catholic and uh you know so so to say what is Catholicism? incredibly well defined uh you know with the Bible and with the the catechism of the Catholic Church which clearly outlays out what you believe if you're a Catholic and and so you know I've heard many people who are not Catholic tell me what Catholicism means inaccurately and I don't point back to my own understanding I point to the writings of the church that say this is what we believe foundationally right and so like do you believe Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior Savior.

[03:30] Yes, you do. I had a good friend of mine ask me recently why we worship Mary. And the answer is we don't worship Mary as an idol. Right? So Mary is someone who we ask to pray for us, right? Just like I would ask my mom to pray for us or I would ask you if you were willing to pray for me to pray for me. So so I think there's a lot of misconceptions about religions and in the Catholic Church in particular. Um but I would say that anybody who wants to truly understand it and study it like it's very easy to access that information. This may not be relevant, but are there are there nuances between the Church of England and Roman Catholics? Is it important or is it just a matter of some semantics around the body of Christ? And yeah, I think there's I mean there's a real big difference between the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church when you get into the kind of the depth of theology. Um for me where I am in my faith journey, it's like I want to love God with all my heart and I want to love my neighbor. And for me personally, if I can get those two things done really, really well, then I'll move to the next thing. But I'm still on those first two things. And that then and again, I know people who are much deeper in their faith and they're like people that I want to model, but for me, it's like that's where I need to start for me right now. How did how did you get here?

[04:43] Were you were you were you did you grow up in a Roman Catholic family or how did how did you come upon Catholicism? No, I'm definitely a convert. So I I lost my faith at 11 when my dad passed away. I told the story here on the podcast where, you know, he passed away at cancer. Really kind of terrible circumstance. You know, I I found his body the morning he passed away. Terrible for an 11-year-old to experience. Had been praying for, you know, over a year that God would heal him. He passed away. And so for all the reasons you could understand for an 11-year-old, I I lost my faith and then came back to it um after kind of a a now well doumented car accident, you can see it, you know, it if you type John Oberg grace and mercy, you'll see a little seven-minute story about the car accident that brought me back to my faith. And and even then it was kind of a rocky road back. You know, it was there were some times where my faith was challenged along the way, but no, it's been a it's been a kind of a hard-fought road back into my faith. How important is um Tell me a little bit about that from your perspective. I mean for me it's it's the way I measure like I have an eternal return that I'm looking for. So for my life in terms of my personal activities, my professional like all of my life I try to have an eternal perspective on try. You heard that right? Tried to have an eternal perspective on and so that I think that does it changes the math for me. Right.

[06:16] So you have a real belief that there is a an afterlife if you will. Your soul lives on. What tell me about that's one of the things I struggle with in terms of what does that really mean? Is it is there a consciousness? What what what is it that you feel and see or believe in? I I mean I think we go to heaven. like I I believe that and you know I've had a couple of experiences in my life that I think I've had a glimpse of that. You know, I had a moment where I was a camp counselor. Uh was not a practicing Christian at the time and um was in a moment of crisis. um was uh around a campfire and um had kind of um was with a group of people and there was this kind of uh exercise we were all going through and everyone was going to toss like a pine cone into the fire and uh and then let it you know burn in the fire. you've seen pine cones big deal. And so I I kind of smuggly grabbed a wet pine cone that was like soaking wet and tossed it into the fire knowing it wouldn't actually and it burned and it was like this kind of amazing moment where it was like and it was related to my dad's death. And so it was like a real moment of like there was something supernatural that happened and it was really clear to me and those people that were there that something supernatural had happened that wasn't explicable. And I've had that happen a couple times. the car accident, you know, you see a time when I really should be dead based on how the accident happened and I walked away without a scratch and there was a supernatural intervention that even even the guy that pulled me out of the car was like, "Hey, man, like I just watched a miracle happen." And so, um, so I've had a couple moments where I've I've I've been able to have that kind of real intervention in my life that that showed me that like, hey, there's something more beyond your understanding.

[08:05] educate me on, you know, where Catholicism came from. You know, did it after the the crucifi crucifixion of Christ? Was it born before that at all? Where where is its genesis? No, it was really Christ handing off the church to Peter. Okay. Right. So, Peter was the first, you know, the first pope, I guess, in a way, the first bishop of Rome is is I don't think they called him that at that time. I'm not a historian, but the bottom line is you talk about the bishops of the Catholic Church today, and it's the it's the uh the ministry of Peter. Okay. I think now I'm going to have a whole bunch of Catholic people reach out to me, and they're going to correct me, and I have to come back and put show notes to kind of get you the exact theological answer, but the the you know, that I'm a convert recently and learning about my faith, is it like it's the it's the ministry of Peter? Do you see the Bible as um are there pieces of it that are apocryphal? How do you view the Bible? I I view it as authored by God through people. And so it's the truth, capital T, truth, you know, translated by humans, right?

[09:18] So the stories, the New Testament, the Old Testament, all that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, one of my spiritual directors gave me this thing where Alexio Deina is a way of praying. And it's a way that if you allow it that God can communicate with you through prayer. And so, um, and there's a lot of different ways to pray. And, you know, Dan Burke is an amazing author who talks about lots of different methods of prayer. And he's a guy that I really look up to in terms of like learning about prayer life. And so, um, I think, you know, I've had experiences where I've been able to read the Bible and get what I need in the moment in my conversation in in my prayer conversation. I'll give you a couple just really clear examples. I was really frustrated, dark time in my life, praying to God that he would give me some answers. And at one time, I got really angry because I wasn't getting the answers I wanted. And I was like, you know, you know me evidently so well that you can like pick up the phone and call me. And I've been asking you for this answer for like I can't tell you how long. And it's been a dark time like where the f are you? And this is like a Tuesday morning on the way to work that I'm having this yelling match in the car alone, right? And I remember it being a Tuesday morning because I was meeting Greg for Wednesday lunch as I do every Wednesday at that point in my life. Greg and about 15 or 20 other people got together and had a conversation. And Greg calls me on the way home Tuesday night knowing he's going to see me Wednesday for lunch. He said, 'Hey, I know I'm seeing you for lunch tomorrow, but I was praying for you this last Sunday, and I got these two words I'm supposed to say to you that I don't know what they mean, but here are the two words. And the two words Greg got on Sunday were the answers to my questions that I was yelling about God at Tuesday morning that Greg then called me Tuesday night to give me the answer.

[11:01] Two words were I don't remember, but I remember like God I asked to call me and he did through Greg. Like so, so it didn't even matter what the answer was. It was it was like I'm asking you all knowing one to use the phone and he knew on Sunday I was gonna ask. So just there's things like that that I just like you can't make stuff like that up. It's interesting. You know, one of the things that happened to us um as a family, which is which again is unexplained where um my mother who passed away too young of an age had given my wife um a mother's ring with the stones of the three kids, the three grandkids in it. And so we were living in Arizona at the time and my wife looked at the ring and the stones were gone. Just gone, you know, the tiny little very small little. And she put it on the kitchen counter. on the counter. He used to yell at her say, "What are you doing? You're going to lose the ring." She said, "Well, I have to get to the jeweler, get the one morning, we came down and the three stones were in the ring."

[12:23] happen? And it absolutely happened. I was there, you know, the non-believer. So, that's why one of the reasons why I wanted to have this discussion because I I've been shaken in my life both away from faith and towards faith. and I can't seem to get the final answer. So, I'm here with my buddies and Randy, I'd like you to juxtapose where you are versus where John is and continue the discussion. Give me one second before you jump in like the like the faith is a mystery. Like we say the mystery of faith in the Catholic church all the time. And I told a priest just last week, I was like, I've finally come to I've come to acceptance and grips with where I am in my faith. And and and he joked with me. He's like, "No, you haven't. Like, that's why it's a mystery." And I was like, "Okay." Yeah. Yeah. Like like that that like there is the mystery of faith like Yeah. And I want to come I want to come back to specifically that for not necessarily a positive reason. Yeah. So Sure. So I'm more complex than John. Um you know I wish that I could just put a label on it as an I was Catholic and here are the rules. There's always time, Randy. And I grew up in the church. I grew up in a Lutheran household, right? going to church and getting confirmed and blah blah blah. I probably know the Bible better than me most people, but still not, you know, not at a really high level, but I was never very religious. Like I believed in God, but it wasn't it wasn't a center part of my life. And I struggled with I think a lot of the human aspects of the church in the fact that yeah some of the same questions you clearly have Anthony as far as all right this was written in this language and it was translated to this language and it was people and I know it's supposed to be the word of God but they're still people and they have incentives and they so I always question some of that but then even just if you take it doesn't matter if it's the Lutheran or the Catholics. I mean, I use the Catholics because I think they're the ones that have the most clearly have one person, right? They have a pope that's in charge. And I But am I always like, well, I know there's talk speaking through God, da da da. I I I know what the answer is supposed to be on the test, but I don't know that I ever bought into what's the question on the test that okay, how is the the po how is this human in charge? And I know that God speaks through them and similar to what you're saying with the Bible, right? not being Catholic, so I probably shouldn't be putting words in, but I think in general, ministers, preachers, doesn't matter if it's Lutheran, Catholic, Methodist, or whatever. So, I struggled with some of that stuff. And I would never say I had deep faith. I would say that in the last few years, my belief, conviction, faith, whatever you want to call it, has increased dramatically. Now, this is going to sound completely different than John. I actually think it's aligned much more than it's different. But for me, it was psychedelics. And coming from somebody that had never done drugs, had never touched anything, doing Iawaska was a unbelievably eye-opening experience for While I had always believed everything happens for a reason and similar, you're talking about miracles. I can think of three or four times in my life, a couple times on the road where the fact that I didn't die in a car crash almost had to be divine. Like cars spinning and just ways where for it to have missed me, it you know mathematically was really slim.

[16:02] And that's happened two times in particular that that just really So there was some level of belief there. And when I did Iawaska, like the whatever it is, the awareness that everything is connected and everything the the energy and the power and to me I think about it more than God being a person. I think most people think about and I know maybe this is just me projecting because this is what I did as a kid, right? I always thought of God as like this person. All of a sudden, it became the universe and it became this unbelievable of super super intelligence of every planet, every star, every comet, every tree, every person, every insect. All of that is magically working together with one massive intelligence. It's so obvious to me now. Like, it just it's I don't I don't know how to explain it. It is. And I think of it as the universe energy, but it's God. It's the same exact thing in my opinion that a Christian calls God. And I just believe there's a lot of ways and a lot of wisdom throughout history that get to the same way. And I think Christianity is one way and there's stories in the Bible. Okay? and everything is the fact is if you follow that all evidence I've seen you're going to be a better person people that read the Bible apply it they just whether they believe it or not is is I don't want to say it's irrelevant because it's clearly it's relevant but they will be a better person they'll move in the right direction I think people that do psychedelics have very much you come away with more love more more gratitude more empathy, more grace, and a lot of that stuff is very well aligned. Um, and to be clear, the way I've known psychedelics is not as a party drug. It is not taking it and going to the club or, you know, listening to EDM, whatever the hell that music is, right? It's it's taking it, putting an eye mask on, listening to some goofy music, and you're doing deep internal work, not talking to anybody. And it's it's a different experience is what I'm talking about. like doing it that way very intentionally. You're looking for a spiritual experience at that point. Yes.

[18:33] Yeah. Right. And um I think people that do real deep meditation, I think even some people find it through journaling or yoga or I just think there's a lot of things that are all kind of aligned and rowing in the same direction and they all come out with the same beliefs. Like it's not an coincidence that if if the Bible and psychedelics and all these different things teach you, you know, meditation, prayer, they they kind of have the same And I even think that about different religions. Yeah. I think I think the one thing that most Christians would say though is you have to fundamentally to call yourself a Christian, you would need to acknowledge that Jesus Christ was the son of God and died for our sins and is our savior. I think that's the and that's the thing that like where there I think that's one of the kind of and again I'm not a theologian. I work with theologians. Um but that that would be kind of like the one checkbox that is a a starting place for that. Yeah. Yeah.

[19:39] And I think not think I know that since I've done psychedelics when I hear Bible verses I understand things that I never understood. And the real takeaway for this, I went to a f first thing I called I I mean it was a friend of mine, but not somebody I see frequently. And it was his wife who I didn't know at all died. And it was a really I remember it was a really inconvenient day. I had a lot of work, but I just something called me that said, "You need to go to this funeral." And it was, you know, it's going to be an hour and 15 minute drive both ways. And I generally avoid funerals if I can anyway. So, it was kind of an odd one. And I got there and it was a very religious there was a lot of Bible verses during during the the funeral and I'm listening to Bible verses that I'd heard before and I'm like, "Oh, that's what that means." It literally had never made sense to me or it never I heard the words but I didn't understand them and something about the psychedelics opened up thought processes or something in my brain to better understand it. So I guess I I very much believe in God and I believe there's a greater intelligence. I believe things happen for a reason and I got there I think a very different way than John got there. Sure. And you know I don't know that our beliefs in that are 100% aligned but I think they're a lot more aligned than not aligned. Yeah. I would say that I would I I meet very few Catholics whose beliefs are aligned like like exactly aligned. Like I think that's one of the, you know, um I' I've never met two people that are at exactly the same place on their faith journey. So I think that's that's fair.

[21:24] So when you say you believe in God, do you what do you see in God? What do you what are you seeing for God? Are you seeing a power in the universe, a a spirituality in the universe, a sense of energy uh of some sort? What what are you seeing as God? Yes. To everything you just said, I see for me, I literally kind of picture just this infinite universe and all of that energy and flowing together. And I think it's, keep living that our energy and our essence. I don't know exactly what happens, but again, I think I think a lot of John I think is more open-minded this than most people that call themselves Christian. I think people like they're like this is heaven. Well, I don't know that I know what heaven is, but I think floating around the universe is a version of heaven and we're energy and we're released from this body and whether we just float around forever as long I don't like maybe we come back at in another life. I'm not opposed to that, right? That we we come back and take another body. Maybe we come back as a rock or a planet somewhere or whatever.

[22:45] I I think most Christians would probably say that's not the case based on the Christian theology that I'm aware. Understood. But I I do think most Christians would say that we're not capable of understanding it. And that's okay. That's again the part of the mystery of faith. Like there's just there are some things beyond our understanding. And I think it would be to me at least a little shortsighted to like we've proven throughout history that humans didn't understand a bunch of stuff that became clear later on. Mhm. So isn't it then reasonable to extrapolate that when we die we become then more like there's again more like isn't it even if not probable at least possible right why do you need that belief or why I shouldn't say not you specifically but why do why why do humans why do humans need that belief is it because they fear that the end is the which is what I feel at this moment that and I don't fear it. Um is it because we we we have such a wonderful life here.

[23:51] We we don't want to believe it's going to end and we want to keep it going. We want to see our parents and we want to see our, you know, have a have a life again, continue our lives on. Is it is it kind of a um what would be the right word? Um, not a copout, but a it's a justification. Justification. Yeah, maybe. But what if what what if what if the answer is because you're a spiritual being and you've got that hole and it's not going to feel filled up until you fill it with the right thing? Like, isn't it also possible that you're a spiritual being that is called to this relationship with God that you can't fill up with money or human relationship or working out or food or whatever? Like the only way you're going to fill it up is that relationship. And until you do, you're going to have that little yearning that that inside like so so someone who who is, you know, not Catholic or Christian could say, well, you're just trying to avoid some other reality that they can't prove and that's how like but my point of view is that we're a spiritual God, a spiritual being made in the image of God that that you have a God hole that gets filled up with Yeah. Yeah. And I I understand where you're where you're coming from in terms of, you know, filling your filling your time here with spirituality. What's the what's the downside of it? Pascal's wager. Right. Right. You know, it it's it's great. And Randy got to the same place in a different way, right? By um getting there through um a plant, if you will. Um the struggle that I that I sometimes have is how whether it's faith or a religion or a a you know, being used for the wrong reasons, you know, um like the Crusades.

[25:54] Well, I I we can go back to that. That's that's a Well, it's easy because it's distant. Yeah, but I'm talking more like against another for, you know, Randy, you said by by doing this, I feel like I'm a better person. You said something very similar that, you know, it makes the world a better place. And I guess in your two silos, the the the answer to that is yeah, it does. But what's gone wrong in or has it always been wrong that the the the conflict that gets created because you know you believe you know Christ was uh sent here by God and perhaps the the Jewish faith doesn't exactly believe that and that creates conflict. I mean what what's going wrong here? humans. Yeah. I mean, but but it's humans, And somebody can say they're Christian or they can say they're Jewish or they could say they're a peaceful Muslim, but then humans have incentives. Sometimes it's power, sometimes it's money, sometimes it's, you know, sex. I mean, whatever it is. And you know, they do what's best for them, right? I do what's best for Randy or John does John for John or you do what's best for Anthony and they forget their beliefs. I mean, a lot of this, you know, we talk about core values in a company, in a business or in a life.

[27:40] People have core values that go along with their religion, but they don't do any good if you don't follow them, right? So I mean you know I also believe things happen for a reason and I think you need evil like you need bad things to be able to appreciate the good things and I think I think everything has to you know happen but I that's my takeaway. I don't know if John thinks different but that um I have there's a nuance here that's really really important. So like um like do you believe in cold? Yeah. But but do you believe there can be cold? I'm not sure I understand the question specifically. I'm trying to Do you believe that Do you believe that things can be cold? Well, what we define as cold. Okay. So, you believe cold exists? Yeah. Okay. What if I told you that um cold is not actually a thing. It's just the absence of something else. So cold is only the absence of heat. Good. That like like scientifically, by the way, that's true. Like there is no such thing as cold. There's just the absence of heat all the way down to and including 100% absence of heat which is zero degrees Kelvin. Okay? Right? Evil is the same way. Like it's not as this extra force. It's just the absence of love.

[29:02] And absolute evil is the absolute absence of love. And so like but you can't it's our way it's our abstraction of understanding that vacuum. Does that make sense? So, so evil doesn't exist maybe exactly in the way you talked about, but there is evil as a measure of the absence of love. And like you can't think if you again if you believe in the God that I believe in, you can't have love without free will. So if God really did create a human with free will in the hopes that that human would then love God back, if he didn't give free will, then you can't have that love. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, what you're what what you're saying, Randy, is that this is an indiv it's an individual decision of how good I want to be. And some people take a a religious approach to that. Some people take an esoteric uh space journey to that, and others don't take any journey at all.

[30:06] They're just human beings on Earth trying to make their way in in in from across a spectrum with loving people who are non-believers to evil who are just plain evil. Um it's a it goes across that whole spectrum. So religion isn't the answer necessarily, right? Um it's a it's a I almost view it as a tool in the toolkit to be in good. No, I don't think that's I mean, no, I I fundamentally disagree like and if you would I mean I think there are people that would say like you know Steve Jobs last words indicated there was something different and that if you believe the stories about people who have died and come back and kind of seen the light and come through then you know if you believe that um in the Bible that Jesus came back and explained post-resurrection what was going on like no fundamentally religion is not a tool to do good in the world. No, I reject that. like that that's not an eternal view. That's that's a justification that you talked about a minute ago. Like if you believe if you believe that Jesus was the son of God and that you have an opportunity to go to heaven in, you know, post your humanity, then that's that's a different that's a different thing than than I should be good in this world and this is one way for me to justify it. Those are different things.

[31:26] What do you say about that? Well, I want to go back to you asked the question and John answered, but why why do we you were it was something along the lines of why do we have religion or why do we need religion, right? As far as I know, doesn't matter what culture you go to, what place on the planet, everybody just seems to have religion. throughout time there have been different religions and people whether doesn't matter if we're if it's the Christian god if it is you know Thor or Zeus or the sun or the moon or the rain or all these people like people have some type of need. I'm not don't claim to be smart enough to understand it or be able to tell you the psychology or what hole it's filling, but there seems to be something in humans that we need that part of us filled up to be to be our best self. Um, and I would argue you know, part of the problem in the world today is people are filling that with the wrong thing. I think there's a lot of people and this is me certainly expressing my opinion but people that some of the most religious people I know are the people that say there is no god like they are adamantly like their religion is atheism right or agnostic or whatever and other people you know we watch it with the right and the left some people are so into a certain political group or a certain team but I think if and this is I think where cults come from if people don't get into some religion or some group, they become susceptible to cults. And I just I think all of it that there's something there's some hole in us that needs to be filled.

[33:19] And well, for and for Christians, it's a very personal intimate relationship with the Trinity. And this was the part that I really didn't understand very well. And it's the reason I left the the Christian, you know, church when I was 11 and came back to Catholicism. I had to really sort out what my relationship with the Trinity was and and that's been a complicated journey for me and and I think you know I have uh friends and mentors who have these amazingly intimate relationships with the Trinity that fill up their life and so the Trinity for people that don't know. Uh so it's you know Jesus, God the Father and the Holy Spirit, right? So that would be and and for me the way that I'm able to uh relate to the trinity is I I relate to Jesus in one way and and God a different way and the Holy Spirit a different way. So for me you know Jesus is is a great like when I need to talk to a brother or someone like that is very relatable for me. Then God the father has helped me kind of fill the hole that was created when my dad died. And then you know uh the Holy Spirit becomes like a wise counselor for me. that that's one way that I find prayer to be much easier and um and approachable for me. And so I lean into that and and I I've heard, you know, different ways that other Catholics uh lean into the Trinity in ways that make their prayer life rich and full. Um I would say that along the journey I would call myself kind of just post neophite like like pretty advanced beginner or you know like not not very far along the path compared to some people that I know. But yeah. Yeah. So I I think but but it but but I don't think you can take a relativist approach as a Christian like that's not I think I think that for you know at least my understanding is that that misses the point and and I think that for for me I'm pretty aware of what spiritual warfare does and how the devil plays his role in spiritual warfare. And it's, you know, I it's like I'm the chance of me getting kind of um lured off my track by kind of the most, you know, um vicefilled things in the world are pretty low, but the chance of the devil getting me one degree off track is where the real danger is. And so that's I think that's where I'm kind of saying like and again you what for the listener I would say look fourth wall looking in like you know we don't talk about this stuff very often as a group. So, like I'm I'm the last one to try to force my beliefs down somebody's throat. And I' I'd hope you guys would agree like after, you know, however long we've been hanging out together, 15, 20 years, never once have I tried to force my beliefs down, but but I hope that you would report back to me that my actions are, you know, at least mostly consistent with my professed belief system. I hope I haven't missed on that.

[35:57] So, let me um open my kimono a little bit and go and give you some of the thought that that's brought me to this point. And you just touched on it, Randy, by talking about throughout people have believed in higher powers so whether it's worshiping a mountaintop, you know, the Vikings, I forget the name of their god that they that they worship so on and so forth. and all through history, you know. Oh, Odin. Odin. Thank you. I watched all Thor's dad. Um, it's okay. It it that's the case is people lack something or needed something because they again they feared the nothingness of tomorrow. answer here, right? There isn't there isn't or is there a right answer and it finally came you know 2025 years ago where we people have been worshiping things and sacrificing two things for you know well let me tens of thousands of years. I'm let me just take a different approach, right?

[37:26] Because you're saying someone can come and say, "Well, you only believe that because you're afraid and there's no proof I can give you, but it's just fear." Okay, that that's like a b like that that's a no proof argument. That's like the sun's going to come up tomorrow. The sun's not I'm asking the question. Is that the reason? I think I think we have a god hole, which I don't know. There's a book about this that I I I'm afraid I might be using a different definition than the person who wrote a book about it. So, with apologies to that author, but there there's a spiritualness to us that we need to fill up with the right thing. And until we get the right thing, we still feel empty about that part of it. And so, you know, one of the questions I posed to one of my kids was, you know, every historian, forget theologian, even atheists agree that Jesus lived. Like, like Jesus was a human who who did live, who did die, any, you know, wellstudied historian is going to agree with that. And so then you're faced with a choice to make. And the choice is that he was either the best con man in the history of the or he's exactly who he said he was. But there's really not much in between. And so if you're saying like is what is did Jesus come to like was he really who said well either he was the best con man that's ever lived or it's he was who he said he was the son of God. But you but if but if you agree with all the historians including atheists who say he lived then that's the choice you're faced with intellectually.

[38:55] is on the wrong track. Meaning meaning if you're not Christian, Yeah. Because he's the son of the only God that matters. That that is the Christian belief. Yes. Right. So that puts Ry's what Ry's feeling is just you know No, if you're a Christian, what that does is it puts God in the driver's seat to judge everything. No, no, listen again. God's the judge of that, not me. And so it's not my job then. Like I I I'm not going to sit in judgment of Randy ever. Even our even our late Pope Francis just said, "Who am I to judge?" I don't think he was justifying somebody else as much as he was saying like, "I'm on my path, right? I'm not going to judge Randy. I'm not going to judge you. Not my job. I'm going to judge me. I'm going to walk on that path, right? Is it the right path? Yeah. If someone says like, "Is is is is our God the true God and other gods are not?" Yes, that's that's what I believe. Absolutely. Am I going to judge you for that and like chastise you and shame and guilt? No. I don't think that's like that. I was talking to a group of people in the church about this recently. It's like that. Remember the story about Jesus when the guy comes to him and says, "I want to follow you." And Jesus says, "Sell everything and follow me."

[40:08] And the guy doesn't do it. He turns and walks away. I always ask people like, "What's the next verse in the Bible where Jesus runs after him?" He's like, "Wait, wait, wait. No, it's real. I'm the real guy. Like, I'm the God. You should come." Like, "Hold on a second. Let me convince you. Let me tell you." Oh, yeah. That verse isn't in the Bible because Jesus doesn't do that. He just lets the guy walk away. loves the prostitute and he still loves the tax collector and he still like I I just I think what I wish we would do as the Catholic Church broadly is love people first and foremost. And I don't think that if you look at the history of the Catholic Church that that's been everyone's experience. I've heard stories of people getting bered in the confessional. I've heard stories of people being shamed by church leadership with lay leaders like and and those stories destroy me. But I think this John to give the Catholic Church some grace. Okay, this is humans again, right? 100% this is this happens in religion and I think we look down on it more because there's and I'm guilty of this because we go this is religion and you're supposed to turn the other cheek and you're supposed to forgive and there's hypocrisy there.

[41:23] Let me be really clear. My siblings treated me like and never once did I walk away from my mother and father because of it. Like I think that's the part we just miss fundamentally. But but this is what happens again. Let's go back to the red team and the and the blue team, right? Politics, same thing. Like so many people instead of listening to the other side or just getting along or loving the other side, they just go, "Oh, you're against me. You're the enemy. I hate you." Here's the difference, Randy. like like I'm suggesting that we need a relationship with the Trinity as the most important thing like and I I'll come back to that in half a second. But when my brothers and sisters mistreated me as a child, I did not bl I was upset with my parents for not protecting me at times, but I didn't like stop loving and like get I didn't exit the family from my mother and father because of the kids' bad behavior. And there are people that justify, you know, leaving the church because of a human's bad behavior when God is still, you know, allloving and omnisient and and they blame a human's bad behavior. By the way, I'm not justifying bad behavior at all in any way, shape, or form by justifying that.

[42:33] What I'm saying is that that my relationship is with God, not with the humans. And when they're imperfect, I can recognize my own imperfections. Right? And so that I think that's that's a point of view that's been much more helpful for me along the journey. But I think the red team blue team thing is different because there's not a there's not that third figure in there that you're trying to like stay connected with. That's the difference. But I think it's just any group that it doesn't look if something's right and just because the people doing it are are bad people, right? doesn't change the fact that this is the right way to go whether it's religion or anything else. I I can agree with that. And there's just there's good people and there's bad people in every every group including every religion. Yeah. Right. And even you know one of the things I don't know if you ever watch these documentaries on cults. I've watched a couple of them like I think Wild Country that was on Netflix and when you first start watching it you think this place looks great. everybody gets along and it's love and it's this and it looks great and then the next thing you know they're killing people and taking over a town and I think poisoning food supplies and I mean they lose their damn minds, right? And that's just the human just people are imperfect. People are messy. Yeah, we've had popes that have been adulterers and like I mean just the number of problem like people are still people without a doubt. And then but it also gives them like you mentioned the crusades earlier, right? It gives people I think a lot of times they use it as like they take that that religion and they use it as justification to go in this case kill millions of people and fight a war. Yeah. Right. That that's not God, right? That's people claiming that they're God. Well, so from my there are so many choices, right?

[44:26] There's all different choices of um your your body and your your soul with spirituality, good feeling, a sense of you know uh preparing for the next um the next phase. the hope that that this this is the right choice that it it seems like false hope, you know, like why not Islam? Why Catholicism? Why not Iaska? Why not, you know, Presbyterian, uh, Baptist, so on and so forth. So many different choices and they're extremely divergent, right? um that and then going back to worshiping a mountaintop, worshiping a you know a a piece of marble that's in the Andes or whatever the case might be.

[45:29] You say, "Okay, yeah, now I get it. It's it's it's something people need because they want to be comfortable in the does that tell me that there really isn't an afterlife? I mean, do do I d that's where I've I'm not saying I've drawn that conclusion, but I'm trying to not draw that conclusion. Well, you've already drawn the conclusion that there's supernatural something. Mhm. You've maybe opened your at least open to the fact that there's this hole that's supposed to get filled with As a Catholic, my God is a God of peace and not chaos. So, I know I'm on the right path when I'm praying and I receive peace as the answer to that prayer. And so I think you know but again at the end of the day a part of that for me a part of my faith is faith which means there is no understanding. It's faith beyond understanding. And so at some point as a Catholic one of the leaps you have to make is that leap of faith right and and and recognizing that there is no intellectual understanding of that. It's beyond comprehension.

[46:39] Well, I think that's true of almost all not formal religions but all beliefs that you have it's the faith in to help you have a calmer I I calling it calmer I'm not sure it's the right word but a a more sedate life here you know a a a um not a worry-free but a calming peaceful feeling of being here that you know what settle down it's going to be tomorrow is going to be okay right whether it's true or not none of us know we don't none of us actually know with what we believe that's right and and and I think the beautiful for me I don't have to know like that's the be like for me that's the easy part the I don't think and I don't want to put words in your mouth Anthony but I don't think you're ready for the big leap of faith right like like you're not there. So, if we go back to actually our last episode with um Dr. Dustin Williams food is medicine, he had a concept that I thought was great of take one step to the right, just do more. So, maybe the question is what does that look like for you, right? Like what is what is the one step and whether and maybe it's try different things and see what works for you, right? and and you get one step and then either that works and you take another step or you go, "Oh, that doesn't really work for me. Let me take this step instead and this didn't work." And then you find something and then you just keep moving one step at a time. Yeah. But you're you're implying there that moving to the right is the right answer. You know the I'm not I don't know how to I'm gonna say it and it's not it's not gonna come out right.

[48:38] But what if I believe you're just wrong? You know that what what you're feeling isn't real. What you believe is not to you. I don't know. That's what I'm working on. Yeah. Yeah. I'm working on it. Um but if I come to that conclusion, you know, then then that's your conclusion. But you're you're I don't think you think again I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the fact that you're asking the questions and you're curious, I don't think that's the way you're leaning. Right. Right. Right. But like what our society has done to us, it's forced us into this datadriven universe where we want, you know, we're inclined to want proof of things, you know, and you know, the that that ring is I'm hang I've been hanging on to that Um 32 years. Yeah. How many other things you hung on to for 32 years? Not much other than family. Pretty strong uh pretty strong thread.

[49:42] So anyway, maybe triple braided. Is there anything else you want to you want to We all time. So what's the what's the takeaway for you? Like what's the I mean does this I'm going to offer I'm going to offer a suggestion. Can I offer a suggestion? Of course. I think you take and digest what we've talked about today and say okay the question coming in was whatever it was today and you've hopefully now taken some perspectives and it's like so I think let's come back and let's say what's the next question okay like what's the next and that's it just what's the next question and I think you should feel for me at least totally comfortable pushing back on I'm not going to get there I'm not going to believe it I think it's all like that's not going to hurt my feelings well you know as a lifelong learner and I truly believe that that's, you know, one of my core values. I don't know where this is going to lead. Sure. You know, I'm going to keep thinking about it, learning about it, trying to understand it. But we've got we've got a mutual friends as a theologian, I think. So, here's here's the thing I'm going to offer as our next step here for the listener to kind of watch in the fourth wall we're doing.

[50:49] You come back to me and Randy and say, "Hey, I've got the next question." And and then we either the three of us get back in and dive into it and we'll record it again or we say, "Hey, we want to bring a theo theologian in. We'll grab Christian who's our mutual friend and we'll ask the theological questions, but you get to decide where you want to take it to dive in deeper." Yeah, we can make it a Netflix series. This is part one, episode one. It's a great It's a great conversation. I think that it's um I would love it if people felt comfortable having these really vulnerable conversations with people knowing that you don't have to have an answer and you just get to like just kind of pick at it a little bit. Great. All right, Randy, you want to wrap up? Well, listeners, as always, thank you for listening. Uh we wouldn't have a show without you. Uh but download, subscribe, give us a thumbs up, tell your friends, tell your neighbors, check us out on social media, and uh thank you for listening and everybody have a great day. Thanks everybody.