Life as a Professional Poker Player: Randy Lorensen

Show notes

Life as a Professional Poker Player: Randy Lorensen on Risk, Reads and Expected Value

Before he ran a business, co-host Randy Lorensen spent eight years as a professional poker player. Dr. John Oberg asks him how it started, what the game is really like, and what poker teaches about risk and decisions.

Randy goes back to his first poker game as a kid, $20 tournaments, and studying the strategy books until he had an edge. He explains cash games vs tournaments, how satellites and the World Series of Poker work, and how the games differ in Vegas, LA and Austin.

He tells stories from the table: knowing when to avoid a game, pros who target you, and big hands where he trusted his gut. He explains Omaha, the gap between decisions and results, and expected value, the idea behind every good bet.

He's also honest about the dark side: chasing losses, tilt, and how many players go broke. The lessons carry over to business, from risk and reward to sticking with a read.

How Professional Poker Players Think: Expected Value, Risk and Poker Life Lessons

What you'll discover:

How Randy went from home games to playing for a living
Cash games vs tournaments, and how the World Series of Poker works
Vegas, LA and Austin: different games, different styles
Expected value: risk, reward and decisions vs results
The dark side: chasing losses and tilt
Poker life lessons for business

Timestamps

[00:00] Welcome: Randy's years as a professional poker player
[01:25] How it started
[02:41] Why someone plays poker for a living
[04:01] The dark side of poker
[05:20] His first poker game as a kid
[06:41] Early games and casinos
[07:58] Winning so much he killed the game
[09:16] Learning to count and bet
[10:33] $20 tournaments, and getting hooked
[11:51] Studying the poker strategy books
[13:11] Adapting to different players and games
[14:30] The World Series of Poker
[15:47] How satellites and tournaments work
[17:05] Hold'em: tournaments vs cash games
[18:22] Cash-game rules: buying in and adding chips
[19:41] High-stakes tables
[20:59] Vegas vs LA vs Austin
[22:18] Loose home games in Austin
[23:38] Celebrities at the table
[26:19] Knowing when to avoid a table
[27:37] Pros at the table
[28:55] When other players target you
[30:12] Phil Hellmuth and tournament strategy
[31:30] Dollars per hour
[32:48] Riches in niches
[35:24] A big hand: trusting your gut
[39:22] The LA Poker Classic
[40:41] Omaha explained
[42:00] A flush-draw hand
[43:18] Losing big hands
[44:37] Risk, reward and expected value
[45:57] Instant feedback in poker vs business
[47:16] Decisions vs results
[48:35] The danger of chasing losses
[49:55] Tilt, and the cycle of bad choices
[51:13] Reading other players
[52:31] Another big hand
[55:09] Sticking with a read

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About this episode

Dr. John Oberg hosts, and his co-host Randy Lorensen is the guest, talking about his eight years as a professional poker player. The story continues in Part 2 (Ep 16). Host bios are on the host pages linked below.

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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:07] abundance I'm Dr. John Oberg and with me as always my co-host Randy Lorensen Randy here we are good afternoon John how have you been I've been good you yeah long time no talk yeah inside joke inside joke so today on the show we're going to go into a little bit different location which is one of just my my personal uh curiosity ities and has around the world of uh professional poker and you know this is a world that I know very very little about and what I do know about professional poker is because you've shared with me and I think it's something that you know you don't you don't wear professional poker on your sleeve it's not a part of what you do day-to-day anymore but you did live in that world for eight years I think yeah eight years and and successfully from in terms of being able to to make money doing it and and you're not one of the names that people talk about Annie Duke and you know uh Phil helmuth and I don't know more of them but there's a lot of names that Phil iy doy Bron Phil iy who's Helm youth he's he's a very good big tournament player got it Phil Ivy I know I've seen him on TV once or I've watched a couple of TV shows getting ready here but I don't remember all the names and um professional poker is a hard way to make a living can be most most people can't do it yeah yeah it's um so when we were getting ready for the show I shared with you a personal story about this I think I surprised you a little bit with it didn't I yeah I had never heard that before yeah so when when um so growing up my my mom and biological father were divorced and so when I talk about my dad I'm talking about my stepdad who was one of the most loving people I've ever met passed away when I was a young kid and that's that's my dad but my biological father um divorced my mom because he was addicted to cocaine and gambling and he was a poker shill for a casino and all kinds of bad things happened that I was communicated to me through his mom my grandmother who I did stay close with over the years and that's not a part of my story that I tell publicly very often dad passed away as a young kid biological father passed away a few years ago um reconnected with him when I was 27 28 years old and didn't have a strong relationship but did reconcile enough to have conversations and so um I I thought that was important to share early in the show today because there might be some bias that sneaks up that I'm unaware of that for years I had a real negative judgment towards gambling and I think that went away for the most part in my early 20s but anyway just but you've always had a curiosity about it as much as anybody I know you've always asked questions I think that explains where some of that comes from like where you know where that Curiosity I mean you you're naturally curious anyway yeah but you've I I've always noticed you've had more interest in that than a lot of people and I think you know pulling pulling the pulling the thread on that one just a minute or two I'd say that you know for me I think I was interested in understanding why someone would go do that at the at the cost of a family and particularly when I was the family that that's a real like deep-seated like we're going to get therapists calling in offering their services to me after this one I'm sure um but I think there I think there's a you know I had not put two and two together until you just said that this very moment so I'm processing in real time here but I think my curiosity is around like what like what is the motivation and and I think that there's a part of the story that I know also okay here we go so um I talked to one of my biological father's Shipmates when he was in Vietnam about how Vietnam impacted um his name is Neil uh how it impacted Neil and it was not a it was not a positive impact on him and he came back uh from Vietnam in a really different way than he went over there and so I think that um what I've come to the conclusion at least enough for my lifetime is that it was a coping tool and it was a mechanism and you know drugs and gambling were a way of his him dealing with a really you know crappy situation for him not making excuses just acknowledging what what happened as best as I can put it together kind of retrospectively with him not in the picture and so um so no no negative judgment from me but a lot of curiosity about what that world is like and and and for for reasons I may not even fully understand yeah there's a there's definitely a dark side right like people that play poker for a living would tell you it's not gambling I would tell you it's not gambling H there's some gambling in there right it's you're you're sort of putting yourself in the place of the casino where you put the odds on your side yeah okay um but I have also and this is part of the reason reason I got out of Poker when I got out is yeah I've said before I wanted to be a contributing member of society but I also watched people ruin their lives and watched people that had families and they they were addicted it's I don't think gambling is nearly as addictive as say cocaine or nicotine or any number of other things sure but it certainly there are people that are addicted to it sure 100% right and I've watched many people ru their lives and frankly probably made a decent amount of money off some of these people right like as as as as part of the process so that's a real thing yeah what what so when I mean I'm assuming you played poker before you got into professional poker not much I mean I remember playing a little bit as a kid um I mean the first time I remember playing poker was a game called guts the rules aren't important but I remember when I was a kid I would go with my dad to the local store out in the middle of the country this store was a mile and a half away and the guys get in this back room and they would sit around and drink beer and play poker what and when I was there my dad would take me with and I was just sitting there but I remember my dad went to the bathroom and he let me play his hand and I won and I was pretty good and pretty soon my dad put me in the game and I want how old oh I was young I mean I'm sure this is bad parenting um I mean seven years old8 I mean I was young okay and um six seven I don't know but math was pretty easy for me and came and numbers and I figured it out pretty and I'd watched enough I figured it out pretty fast and so I would go play and I was a winning player even at that age yeah right so okay um and then a little bit older in school did you get to keep the money yeah okay they'd play for quarters and you know I mean it was probably big money for me back then yeah quarters quarters were actually worth uh but and then I didn't somebody asked me if I had a quarter the other day I laughed I was like are you serious did you just really ask that um and I you know I think I played a couple times I think one time I went to a casino when I lived in Iowa and I played seven card stud for a night blah blah blah but that wasn't a thing you and your friends did for fun on Friday nights or whatever there was nothing close and I was too busy working like I was grinding right there was no I didn't have time for any of that so then where did where was your first exposure then like so a guy I played football with asked me if I played craps I said no but I've been in casinos and those guys seem to have the most fun I would love to learn how to play craps yeah so he took me to my I think it is the most fun yeah you go around that's where everybody it just they laugh that it is it's the fun it's funnest place in the casino so in my opinion so we went to a who has become one of my good friends um my friend Lance say house and he had he'd have these $20 craps tournaments and we went and they explained the rules to me and again I'm good at math and I figured out right away this is a mathematical problem and there's I don't know 15 people around the table we play the winner takes all the money except I think second place gets her money back The Winner Takes it all and the first time I play I think I get second the second time I play I win and all of a sudden they keep doing this frequently and honestly I win so much that I pretty much kill the game like people like instead of having 15 people pretty soon there's 10 people and there's eight people and there's six people we're playing all the time and somebody goes well we should play poker and I remember thinking well I'm making good money playing this this craps because we're having multiple your CRA experience is primarily just a fun home home game yeah it was just and I mean $20 but but I've never played a huge craps game in my life I've played I ended up playing with Senator John McCain once came in and played at a table with us and he's the nicest guy in the world to I mean I don't know I don't know what his politics were and I wasn't into Arizona National but it fun to have a celebrity come and play so that was it and they this is you realize you were the celebrity in that game that home game like you were the guy coming back like you were the all-time winner I guess I don't the Randy Lorensen and hall of fame um but we started out this was D we would then go play Maybe One crafts tournament instead of HE what's the key to craps by way in a casino or a tour I mean a tourn in a house tournament at the end it's just win or take all so you have to be able to everybody at the table know exactly how many chips they have and what they're betting and how much they'll have if they hit and how to counter that like you're it's like oh if this person hits I have to bet this so that I have more than them and when we would count up you weren't trying to get everyone's chips it's whoever had the biggest stack at the end of a certain set time of finishing not everyone was bankrupt God I would frequently win by $1 right like everybody would start with $200 in chips or whatever we started with and at the end somebody would go oh I think I got Randy this time and I'd go no you have 3,214 and I have 3,215 and I would be betting just enough like I could do the math in my head that they couldn't do and that I would I would be doing things that counter would not have won that game and I understood the odds like I'd look where their bet is and I'm like oh that's probably going to go to zero so sometimes it was just you you were actually literally playing craps against the person so that doesn't work in Vegas right you that's not the way it works in a casino yeah yeah okay like there is no way to Edge a casino got it well be the C build the casino that's how keep winning yes yeah okay all right okay so there we are yeah they they don't build those casinos from all the winners yeah yeah everybody goes to Vegas and comes back tells you almost they won but they yeah got it yeah um but this was right around or maybe even a little before the Chris Money Maker phenomena in the World Series of Poker but poker was becoming a big thing and so we started going to his table in having $20 poker tournaments and the first night we played I won right and I actually just wanted to play crabs because I thought it was more fun I wanted to go back to it but they kept wanting to play poker well after we played a few nights I thought well if we're really going to do this because I'm winning at this too and I just could do the math and the stats and the odds yeah like most people that play poker very much so math and the stat little technical HIC up there if we don't cut it out most people that play now have read enough books they've or they just memorize yeah that if the Flop comes out in Texas hold them which means there's two cards to come and they have a flush draw there's a 38% chance they're going to hit it right somebody has told them that whether they really understand it or not is another story the first time I played I just went through it I'm like okay there's 52 cards in the deck I got two in my hand that leavs 50 I see three on the board that's 47 there's two diamonds out there I have two in my hand I need one more there's 13 in the deck there's anyway I was able to do that math and figure out what the percentages were which gave me a huge Edge yeah on other people but then when we kept playing I went and I bought actually Phil hel's book Doyle brunson's book which was called super system which was then can kind of considered the Bible of Poker and I read those things and now I really had an advantage over everybody right um and you know I learned some things about aggression and and betting to using bets as as a weapon and as a tool right and I just won and I was making money and at the time me and my partner had an Energy Efficiency business did that work in a $20 game where 20 bucks is 20 bucks the same way we were yeah I mean it did I mean but you have you're right you have to adapt to your opponent it didn't work against everybody sure some people you only bet when you've got it because they're gonna call right right but other people play tight and so a big part of being a poker is you don't play every player the same yeah right if somebody's real conservative being aggressive works really well if they're really loose and you being aggressive isn't going to work right right because they're not it's just bluffing isn't you don't Bluff somebody that's un Bluff right right right um and so you know I mean you have a martial arts background it's probably a little bit like using yeah sure you know there there's I've never thought about this till right now but probably a lot of using whatever they do against them that was one of my strengths is I was very adaptable and able to play differently against different people yeah and different games and different styles and I was able to even just very adaptable and able to to change on the fly from one game to a next and one person to a next and that sounds like that probably played it all the way through like professional tables yeah when people think about professional poker I think a lot of people least well I'll just say for me I thought like World Series of Poker like that would like and that's I guess You' call that tournament poker I don't know right Lang so so tournament poker is where you go and you you pay an entry fee on my friend's kitchen table it was $20 and we got whatever1 or $200 of chips and you go till somebody has all the chips right and as long as you don't rake the pot meaning as long as someone doesn't take money from that pot legal in most places yeah in Texas completely legal yeah okay um and at the World Series of Poker you get when I first start the first year I played the World Series of Poker when you bought in for 10,000 they gave you 10,000 in chips and then if I remember right at some point they wanted more play so they raised it to 20,000 in chips and then they raised it to 30,000 in chips and you get that and you play now on my friend's kitchen table the game was set up where the blinds escalate at a rate that a tournament would take an hour or two they'd be very quick we'd play several a night yeah the World Series of Poker haven't played it in almost 10 years now but no three or four days just hit the money yeah like to get rid of 90% of the field so you hit the money to win takes weeks like more than one week yeah oh wow yeah so there's multiple day ones and then there's a couple of day twos and then there's again I haven't played in 10 years but then I've played poker but I haven't played the world series cuz I just haven't I don't have two weeks I just haven't had two weeks to go I've kind of been thinking maybe I should play one of these years but it's hard to go out there and spend two weeks in Vegas just you know because you have to plan on if you're going to go you might as well plan on winning yeah right I mean no if you have to go you might as well plan on winning if I had to go I'd plan on being there for a day right like the last time I played I think I played the first day one I so I had to wait three days to come back for day two then I had to wait a couple days to come back for day three and I busted out you know day seven or eight or I mean it was fairly deep which was you know I I don't know more than a week into the tournament sure right and so there are people that pay $10,000 or whatever the entry fee is to get in there's some people that earn their way in too yeah it's called it's called a satellite tournament so you might play a common satellite might be you have 10 people they play one table and the winner gets a instead of getting 10,000 in cash the winner gets a $10,000 seed right so a$1 th entry or it's a $2,000 entry in the top two G um maybe more common is you have a 100 people play a tournament and the top 10 get a seat right for $1,000 entry there could be for $200 entries there could be all different it could be any how many people playing the World Series in Vegas is it a big tournament I think the biggest one was 10 or 12,000 I I think I heard this year it was 8,000 something but I I really need to be fact checked on that cuz I I have n thousands of people I have not paid nearly as much attention for the last you know several years but thousands of people yes many I I think it was 8,000 something this year okay in that ballpark and but that's not when you talk about professional poker I mean the world series of poker's a tournament there are lots of tournaments all the time most of those people are probably not Pros got it a lot of people are going to take a shot yeah but professional poker has played where could be tournaments there's so there's professional tournament Players there's professional cash game players and and those game I mean you those games they might be the same rules you might be playing what what do you guys play Tech hold them yeah but there's hold them there's so but whatever you're playing you know you could play hold them in a tournament hold them in a what you're calling a cash game hold them somewhere those are three different absolutely yeah think of it think of it like track and field okay I'm making this an analogy up on the fly but so it may not be perfect but track and field you've got people that run you've got people that throw things you've got people that jump let's just put it in roughly three categories right um they're all track and field defense well Texas holdom might be one form Omaha there's stud games and I mean there's a whole bunch of different games just like there's different events in track and field but even within running you've got the 100 meters the 200 met you know up through long distance and they all have different skills and different different things right so cash game is a different set of skills than a tournament game yeah cash game is everybody takes cash you change it into chips dollar for dooll and you play and try to take everybody's money yeah in a tournament when you go broke gener there are rebby but when you go broke you're broke you're out of the tournament okay when in a cash game if you go broke as long as you have money in your pocket you're still and want to put it in play you're still in the game and you can add money to the you can't take money off the table till you're done but you can add money anytime you want even in the middle of a hand no not in the sorry not in the middle of a hand but before a hand starts at any time you can add money to the table yes got it and then what you win you cash out or you lose you cash out now so if you go to a poker room in Vegas that's a cash game well there could be both could be happening you a different games but if you go to like the the poker room at a casino and there's not a tournament happening that would be a version of a cash game and then there's games that are not in casinos as well that are like the home games you were talking about I've played a lot of home games yeah yes and so who you don't have to name names but like are there professional players that you were like I don't want to be at that guy's highly of my skills um I mean I didn't maybe it was arrogant I played with very few people that I didn't think I was better than and you know where I really kind of settled in was the 1020 game at the bagio I think back that was stupid that was a hard game that game was so full of Pros um what's 1020 mean 10 the small blind is $10 the big blind's $20 I mean you could buy into the game for 600 but you had like the average stack I mean I I remember sitting at that table where the average stack was 50 or 100,000 I've I've been in that game where people have sat down with a million dollars in front of them right which is a little irrelevant if the next biggest stack is a quarter million you can only lose you know you only Los they mounted the next biggest stack but that was a tough game but I do remember so is that because the blinds were too big or too small what do you mean like you said 1020 was too like that was a competitive game because lots of people were there where were a less competitive game so the less game was like 510 was a much easier game to beat and I remember seeing a lot of times kids they they build their bank roll build their bankroll at 510 and they'd come take a shot at 1020 and they would just out they would every one of them would get killed and then You' see them they they' just they'd go back to that 510 game they'd spend three months beating up on the 510 game they'd build their bank roll they'd come take another shot they'd go broken one night inevitably and they'd go back it was just it was a really if you went back You' go play the 510 game if I went back I would go and play in LA when I went to LA I made so much money like I would just kill I just destroy LA games at the Commerce were so much easier so much easier and it some of it was that but a lot of it was my style like the size of the bets and the bagio was people might sit down with 10 or 20 or 50 or 100,000 in front of them where in La the game people would buy in for a thousand or 2,000 and people gambled a lot it was a it was just had a different feel to the game and instead of two people seeing a flop all of a sudden in La six people saw the Flop and a lot of my strings I was good at the math but I probably been benefited more from my ability to play post flop and a lot of professional poker players their whole strategy is just to keep themselves out of tough decisions and not put that pressure on themselves and not have to make tough reads or questionable decisions I thrived on being put into that situation and I was very very good at coming out of it unscathed and being able to make tough decisions and the more hands I could play a lot of times without getting crazy but I wanted to be in hands be able to find creative ways to win pots and a lot of times I made good money playing against other Pros because they were so predictable and I could I could Zig when they zagged and vice versa um and so that game just played a different style that probably in Austin at the home games and the Underground games that I cut my teeth in was a very it's called loose which which means people just gamble more and that was the way things just went in Austin poker a lot of people seeing a flop and a lot more gambling and the bagio wasn't that way the bet this there was too much money on the table that people weren't willing to take those risk they knew enough about what they were they knew enough about the game to play a more standard game is what I'm hearing yeah nobody's going into that game nobody's going to go you have to have a lot of money to start losing tens of thousands of dollars or even you know you to put that money at risk and just totally gamble is a different level of wealth that most people aren't willing to do some people are any celebrities along the way you played with oh God a lot um I mean a lot of ex-athletes um you know I mean the most famous of which probably Charles Barkley I played with a few times um Leonardo DiCaprio uh you know different different uh James Woods several times um any of them really good um of the pretty good the little bit I played against him Shannon Elizabeth um from the American P movies was actually not bad like she was playing professionally for a while Jennifer Tilly was playing professionally for for a while I don't know if they were winning but they were they they they were not bad um I think I'm I feel like I'm forgetting somebody oral Hershiser played pretty well wouldn't have guess that one he played pretty well I think I think he moved to Vegas in fact I think at one point when he was doing commentary for the Dodgers Dodgers he was living in Vegas and he would fly to LA to do Dodger games and then fly back um not the brand he had for himself yeah so um and a few other there were NBA guys I remember there'd be times where NBA guys would just yeah all of a sudden like a whole team would come to the bagio where quite quite a few NBA guys came through H yeah cool I don't know I'm I'm I'm sure I'm forgetting other people um you know Toby Maguire was you know Matt Damon and Ben afflac were playing certainly when at you know at some point during the World Series you'd see people George castanza what's his real name Jason Alexander yeah um actually played a little after the tall guy and Everybody Loves Raymond I think he was the brother maybe yeah um Brad Garrett that sounds right I think he sat at my table for hours one day during the World Series of Poker and I loved it because he just told jokes and he was funny and he was just he was he was great entertainment to have at the table Yeah right um probably one of my favorite people I've ever played with that just because he made it and I and but other people bitched like you go into the bathroom and they bitched because he talked to him and I'm like he's funny he's entertaining us it's power there's a lot of boredom like you sit there especially a tournament like that yeah I mean I remember times where I wouldn't play a hand for three or four hours like I I played and I generally played a lot of hand but sometimes in a tournament it just the situation didn't arise and you just fold and fold I mean sometimes you know it's hours of boredom and having somebody there that entertain me and I was very social I know that'll come shocking to you but I was I like to talk and do that so tickets to see that guy are expensive it's free free show yeah it was great might even get paid to paid to play with him oh I think I think I'm forgetting some people it's been it's it's been a while yeah and then the of the pros you played with I mean it sounds like you played with all the big names oh back to your question I I went on tangent I did okay so when I played the 1020 table I remember my friend Lane he was playing I believe the game was 2550 or 2040 it was a bigger game but it played even bigger than that and I looked at that table and I was like oh hell no like there was that table was full of killers and Lane was really good Lane was a better cash game player than I was but Brian rast was in that game who you know I I think is you know maybe this day top five players in the world um Kenny Tran was a killer Gabriel Thor um biffer I mean that game had some had some heavy like like people that are well-known people that were on TV that had a much bigger name than me that everybody would know would not go near that game right I don't know I don't think I don't know Phil iy would play in that game right like those guys were hold them those were those are some of the best holding players in the world but there would be enough tourists that would come want to take a shot at that game that they could you know if somebody comes to that game and drops 50,000 you know six seven people can split that up and the next guy comes and drops 30 and the next gu those guys were making a lot of money so they weren't playing against each Ian they weren't like colluding but they weren't playing against each other no you're wait there's a lot of that right like even even in the game I played n-h handed there's a lot of times there were seven or eight pros at the table and you're just all kind of not playing together you're trying to take each other's money but you know where it's easy and where it's hard yeah I look I remember at the World Series is that the whole thing like if you don't know who the sucker at the table is yeah it's yeah I mean look it it's it doesn't matter if you're the if you're the ninth best player in the world if you sit at a table with the eight people better than you right you're going to lose right but I remember World Series of Poker Main Event I'm on a TV table day one somebody that anybody that watch I don't want to use this person's name because I don't to throw them under the bus but somebody that everybody would know right well-known written books Etc had one of the highest Q ratings period that's why there was a TV table what's a q rating it's a TV what's they um how popular you are okay right I don't have at the first break comes to me and goes hey it's pretty clear you and I are the two best players at this table um I won't mess with you if you don't mess with me we can pick off these other seven idiots right and I was like uh I don't I was very uncomfortable with stuff like that that's not uncommon in poker right and different things and I was like uh okay right um and so now later by the way they kind of attacked me right and they didn't necessarily play by that but there was a but without having that conversation you know who you don't want to mess with yeah I mean as far as tournament play I played with almost everybody never played never played with Ivy um the only person and this might surprise people that know and this again this is you a few years ago but the only person that scared me was the dragon David fam I wanted that I could never get a read on him I could never figure out where I was in the hand he was the only guy and he was he won player of the year one year um was runner up I think a couple other times in my opinion the best tournament player I've ever played with and it's not a close second there's really yeah uh played with tons of people I but he and by the way I played cash games with him and I would destroy him I would gut him he was not good but as a tournament player best I've ever seen he at least my style that different though like is it is the style that different in a cash game versus tournament games I don't know why maybe it was mind set with him it it is there aren't that many people like you asked about Phil helmuth earlier if again I haven't seen him played for several years but when I was playing okay if you needed to bet your money on somebody in the main event of the World Series of Poker he might be my first pick mhm but it's a generally a weak field lots of amateurs he could sit around wait he was disciplined he could wait for people to make mistakes right and take advantage of it some people that I think are much better poker players that I had way more respect for and can win other things weren't nearly as good they weren't patient enough at the World Series like a guy like Phil Ivy is playing a game that even back then I think it was a million dollar minimum buy in in a tournament it's like I got to get all the chips I can't spend if I'm not going to go deep in this thing I need to go broke so I can go get back to this game right that's a real you know cost analysis of of of the time being spent so I got to leave this tournament so I can go back to the cash game yeah like I either have to like some people that played really high stakes and cash didn't have the discipline or maybe it's not the discipline maybe it's that they did have the discipline to be really aggressive early and try and get a lot of chips or go broke so they could go back there right that way they're making it's like it's dollars per hour of earning but helmuth sitting down at a cash game with me would not scare by the way he wouldn't scare me in a big tournament either because he's pretty predictable he's not dangerous to me right mean in a cash game I don't think there's any way he's a winning player right I mean I played with him briefly one time I don't think he's a winning player right so it's just different and some people some people only play holdom some people only play Omaha some people only play so the bagio used to have this daily thousand tournament okay and they would start at 6:7 in the morning having satellites into it there were people that made a living they would go and play satellite after satellite after satellite the first one you had to play the tournament and then the next one you could sell it and get the $1,000 for the entry fee there were there were multiple people people that went in there and they were satellite which was a 10p person single table tournament and they would every day seven days a week they like they were there playing from the time it opened to the time and by the way they weren't good then at the Thousand tournament they'd very seldom cash but they made enough money yeah to be able to sell that and that was their little niche you make $200,000 a year doing that there there there's riches and niches right yeah and um you know I I remember this guy that played in the 1020 game he was an older guy he dressed like a Jewish gangster in the in the you know the like the sweat you know the matching sweatsuit and everything and I remember other Pros would look at this guy and go ah he's no good at poker right because he was just he was the math and he was conservative and he took zero risks I mean he if his money went in you were screwed like he was the easiest guy in the world to play against right he was almost incapable of and I was like I don't think so like you guys don't respect him because he's not creative like these are really high level people I'm talking about now like these are some of the best players in the world like you guys don't respect him but that guy makes 200k a year only plays winning hands and takes very little risk he sits here he plays poker for a living he hasn't had a job in 30 years he drives a really nice Mercedes he trades it in every couple years for a new one I mean we don't respect it because it it it wasn't high level but he had mastered that game well if you're not playing to win you're playing to make money that's a different yeah different outcome but and that guy I never really thought about that before right that guy would never make it an that guy would never he has almost no chance to win a tournament because he wouldn't take enough risks like you had there's times in tournaments where you got a YOLO right like sometimes you just have to go for it like the odds and what are some of the biggest hands you've been in like you you you only live once YOLO What's what are some of the biggest hands you've been in the biggest hand I think I ever played I mean it's all perspective a little bit but I'm in Atlantic City I'm playing I think it was a $3,000 tournament and it was a really unique situation there's 19 people left 18 make the money first prize was 365,000 and there was me and a guy at my table who we both everybody just kept coming looking at us I've literally never been another I've seen this if you took my chip stack and compared it to everybody in the tournament except his I had there was no doubt I had more chips than everybody else the other 17 people combined and same thing with this guy and neither one of us quite knew for exactly who had more chips we have huge Stacks in front of us like we've got I I don't remember the numbers but let's just say we each have a half a million in front of us and everybody else is sitting on like 20,000 right like the next biggest stack might have been 40 or 50,000 and we've got half a million each and Y I don't remember the numbers but that ratio is right and we play a hand I'm on the button which means I'm last act he's in the big blind I raise with two kings he calls and the Flop comes King 10 n he bets the Flop or no I think he checks the Flop I bet a pretty big bet because I have top set I have three kings he calls okay the turn comes and it's like a throwaway card it's like a deuce yeah card he checks I bet again pretty big because now and I think there's a flush draw so I'm scared of a flush because now the fact that he calls me yeah I think huh is this guy on a flush draw right so I really just kind of want him out of this hand at this point I really don't want to tangle with the other stack he check raises me all in by the way again King 10 N I think Deuce three whatever the last card irrelevant card if he has Queen Jack he has a straight and I'm beat but that's the only hand that can beat me and I tank because I can still fold and have a lot of Chip like like still have way way more chips than again maybe as much as everybody can buy this is like a huge overb this guy just pushes in that sounds like a bluff right I mean if you're I'm not a player no you don't probably not like not this guy this guy's so he you you think he's probably got I've been playing with this guy for he's got the straight well I don't know so I start one of my strengths at some point they made this illegal I would talk I'd go oh really you have Queen Jack or what do you have two AC you know I was like you have this and I'm talking and I'm watching him and I'm listening and I'm listening with my eyes that's illegal I don't know maybe it's legal again it's a stupid rule that's one of the dumbest rules I could have made right got it so C he doesn't have to answer sure right but I it I'm they're like you can't talk about the hand right well everybody it's only me and him like everybody that is in this tournament that put up this money and has made it this far knows that Queen Jack is like the hand right so now I've got to make this is a this is a big decision right and I'm literally thinking it's 365k for first and second's probably 200k or whatever it was right and I finally come to the conclusion this guy does not have Queen Jack I just whatever read I had this was one of my strengths and you know me well enough to know that in business when when my gut says logic says you should just fold there and just live to fight another day right you should probably just go away but my gut told me he didn't turns out he has two tens right and I I think I even told him I had two kings I might have even shot at one point in time you could turn your cards over and show people which was one of my favorite things I would show them what I had and see what their reaction was they definitely made that illegal at some point and this might have still been at a time where you could do that in fact I think maybe I did that this is a lot of years ago and turns out he has two1 I call them but the river came the river came a 10 call and then the river came a 10 the only the only carard that could beat me was a 10 yeah so I would have had basically a million chips when the ne like I don't want to I mean it's a $365,000 pot but you know I've had you know we talked about this that I always felt like I wasn't supposed to get really rich playing poker and I always made good money but I never got over I never won the really big hands yeah and I've thought about like the hundred biggest hands I've played it really is like God or the universe or something conspired against me and for your own good though but for my own good I think like I really actually believe like I was not intended to win that I mean I in La playing the LA poker Classic with over a million dollar first prize I had a really big stack right on the edge of the money one time and got bad beat twice within like five hands um which still didn't break me by the way but it anyway I but left me really short stacked sure and um by the way both with Kings I had Kings twice and like five hands and lost both with them um Queens for mean I'll if I have two queens I usually fold them now I bet them so that's smart it probably not um probably not so much so you know like I I've played a lot I I do a lot of that playing poker by the way I um in all the years rainy I've know each other by the way for the listeners we've never played poker and for a good reason now you understand why I won't play with them we're not it's I going have a hard time winning in any games we'd play for the stakes I'm not going to be interested honestly I just I'll just give you my $20 we can we can save the time but um the um you know a few years ago this was right before Co I played a Omaha hand where I lost 50,000 cash what's Omaha four cards instead of two and we were playing and you still five up yeah same just like hold him except you get four cards but there CP five Community cards yeah same okay got it same couple other differences that aren't important for but I played a hand where we were playing there's a new thing where you do these bomb pots where there's two not one board there's two boards and half of it you win this board you get half and you win this board you get half I flopped I don't remember exact the board was like one board was like 962 with two clubs and the other one was 963 almost identical boards both with two with two clubs or something or just two different sets of cards yeah it's just one deck but you have two board you're playing I got it there's two I players are degenerates John like we want to gamble I just didn't know he had two sets of nine of Omaha is more gamble way more gambling than Holdem so people that get bored and don't get a thrill out of hold them start playing Omaha which it's part of the reason I played but it's more that the math is much more complex and I had a bigger Edge there and then you had two clubs on both boards yeah so I had and I had a pair of sixes so I had a set of sixes on both boards Y and I had a king High flush draw on both both boards okay so one of them has like nine of clubs three of clubs the other one has six of clubs two of clubs whatever anyway so I have a king High flush draw in and anyway the way the betting went back and forth like it was the guy potted it I repotted it he repot and at some point no idea what any of that means what does pot mean you just match the pot you can the biggest bet in Pot Limit Omaha is the size of so if there's 2,000 you can only bet 2,000 but once you bet 2,000 now there's 4,000 so you can buy 4,000 I can bet well I call your two which makes it six and I can raise you six so I can make the next bet eight got it anyway the last time I potted it it was like 20 some thousand and this guy goes all in over the top of me and he had me covered and I had like 50,000 in front of me so it was another 30 to and I'm like oh my god he has a set of nines and I'm like well I have to call cuz there's nine on both boards this is really unlucky but I always have my clubs to fall back on and hopefully I hit a club on one of these two boards well it turns out he has an a high flush draw on both boards and I'm drawing dead like I've I've been unlucky a lot that wasn't unlucky well it's unlucky and it's a setup hand that there's just no way really to get like I kind of yeah he walked into it but most of the hands I've lost that have been big I think almost every other really big hand I've ever lost I've been in good and lost got unlucky yeah this particular hand I literally could not win so I lost like 50 it might have even been like 54 55,000 in that BT I mean that was that was pretty painful yeah and that was when I wasn't playing for a living it was way more painful working as a full-time jet because that money yeah yeah that money has a different meaning when you play it every day you become a little numb to it there where I was going to this game like once or twice a week even I was playing pretty consistently at that time because I was making a lot of money in this game but that was a that was a not small setback so so any lessons that you thought poker told you that as you got distance from the game you thought I thought that was a life lesson from poker but I wasn't right I know there's life lessons from poker you definitely have that are right from risk mitigation all we'll come back to that I thought yeah it's like hey I think I think poker taught me a lesson but as I got further away from the game maybe that wasn't as helpful as I thought can't think of anything like that I don't know maybe I'm forgetting something but nothing so let's talk about what it does because poker ER might be the ultimate game in asymmetry like in in the evaluation of asymmetric risk right so it's like you're constantly looking at it like you know one one unit of risk to 10 units of reward or 10 units of risk to one unit of reward like that's that's asymmetric asymmetry expected value by the way you you love acronyms I don't but EV is very common in that right expected value is a great statistical term or used in probability all the time right yeah sure um yeah I mean there's you're constantly there's so much right like one of the great things is you get feedback right so you are you and I are in a hand one of the things that I think makes Poker the greatest game by the way the complexity of Poker is so far beyond chess it's ridiculous because chess you can see the entire board right yeah and you joke about us playing but if we play one hand of Poker you and I you've got almost a 50-50 chance of winning right like I don't have much an edge on one hand we play 10 hands I got a little bigger we play 100 hands we still play thousands of hands I have a huge Edge you're not going to smoked right you're just not g to win but by the way I think that probably starts at 10 hands but we I mean luck can run for I've watched people's Luck run for years yeah really have so um I'd rather be lucky than good but you one of the great things about poker is you get immediate feed you put it in the cards go over yeah you see if you want sometimes the cards don't go over you just you bet they fold and you get you're still getting feedback right away the thing that's interesting is in most things like if I have a business and I make a decision it either works or it doesn't work and I think we think oh I do this I think oh I made the wrong decision well maybe maybe I actually made the right decision maybe it was just like that one time the 10 came out yeah maybe that would have worked 98 out of 100 times and I just happen to be unlucky that the 2% happened the time I tried decided to try it and I don't try it again whereas in poker if the cards go up you can do the math and find out did I make the right decision yeah was the pot size right when people do the math wrong and poker like that that 10 coming up was a 2% chance but most people think like the chances of getting four of a kind is like you know a DI Minimus chance but you correctly point out that at that point he had three of a kind and three of a kind with that many cards left is a 2% chance most people don't do the math that way they think like oh well four of a kind is one and whatever how many four of a kinds one in I I don't know a lot one in not yeah much smaller percent but that's the that's bad math right right so people do bad math like that all the time almost nobody understands statistics I've learned yeah like they really don't and you heard you hear a lot of it with Medical in your area like you hear like the effectiveness of a drug that I I heard a study recently that well to be fair you're not even talking something even more narrow which is probability yeah like but the effect like drug like they did a thing with doctors and something I the numbers might be L but I think it was like 85% of doctors when they asked the doctors what that meant they incorrectly they didn't understand what it meant right the the drug Effectiveness and so the average person if doctors 85% are wrong the average person's probably 2% understand right yeah and so even within poker most people don't understand the statistics like and I think even a lot of Pros don't fully get it and so what do you pull away from that though I mean your 10 years past poker whatever you are what are the things you carry with you that are helpful lessons for you today I think it's oh God there's so many I mean a lot of it really comes down to dealing with people and my strength had more to do with even though I was good at the M it had more to do with the psychology the dealing with the people I think the resilience like there's times I lost and lost I played right like one year I went to the World Series of Poker I spent six weeks in Vegas and had one winning day like I I would drive to the bank and get money like I would I would literally sell stocks from my brokerage account transfer it to my bank take the money out I pretty much lost a house during the World Series of Poker okay like just couldn't win didn't play Bad kept getting my money in good and it just didn't work right but there's resilience there was believing like look I made the right play and eventually it will work out right so you know one thing I've come to learn about you over the years I've known you is that you take feedback in in the same like in the same way we just given which is like for the benefit of having the feedback and that's not true of everyone all the time right like you're really able to step back and evaluate and that's one of the great things about our relationship is when we're talking about your company or a problem that one of our friends is working through or whatever like you're you're really able I've only seen you truly get emotional about something maybe one time in 10 years twice in 10 years yeah and look I think a lot of that's just it's the process versus the results it's emotional control understanding I said that wrong it's not that you haven't been emotional it's that you haven't lost emotional control yeah yeah and that's a big part right some by the way some people are fantastic poker players until something goes wrong and then it's called going on tilt and they lose like somebody plays perfect and then something goes bad and then there's just the cycle I got to make up for it and they start making bad choices bad choice after bad choice after bad choice and the next thing you know they're broke or um here's another one I used to love this one world series of poke a big $10,000 tournament there'd be these old really conserv like the guy I talked about in the tracksuit right those guys they take a shot and they sit there and they play really tight really conservative and you could just pick on them right because they were never gonna fight back they were never gonna like and you could yeah and then one of my favorite moves this is going to sound insane and I could only execute it like once a year I'd get in the right situation I would look for them to get Aces right because these guys were tight enough and good like again you wouldn't do this against a bad player but they would sit there I would intentionally call when I really thought they had aces and then I would didn't matter what two cards I had let's say the Flop comes you know whatever 1053 they they would I would check they would bet I would check raise and they're like oh I got Aces this is great and they would call but they get a little conservative and then I would fire and I would fire and they would always fold every time I did I it looks like you get three or four or something because it looks like I hit a set and they're good enough conservative enough to fold yeah so you can this is a really hard this is not something you have to pick the right like you have to wait right player right day you got to play wait months in order to do it but one of my favorite I love this Bluff like I I had a I liked it way too much frankly cuz the first time I pulled it off I don't know why I pulled it off I just felt I could and then yeah I looked for so quick the players got to play tight quick Story the last year I played the World Series of Poker I hadn't been playing I'd started the cabinet business I wasn't I really hadn't been playing and I thought I'm going to go take you know one shot or maybe this is a year after I'd started it and I go and I'm playing table and I'm Rusty I'm just not really on and playing those Stakes for 10 million first prize or plus endorsements or whatever and we're several hours in but there's this old tight guy that I'm explaining he's at the other end of the table and he hasn't played a hand in hours I rais with a hand I think it was king queen but doesn't matter even what it was and he re raises I'm out of position which is just doesn't matter for you but it shouldn't call but I think think okay I want to play with this guy right and the Flop comes something like we talked about right like let's just say it was 10 five dudes fact I'm almost positive there was a t on the board and I check he bets which means he probably has a pocket pair well I don't know at this point I don't have enough information right yeah um and I think I'm going to represent a set and I check rais him he gets nervous he looks at me he calls the turn comes I fire up big bet representing a set by the way the turn is a nine so now I've actually got hope I've got two overs like I don't think my king or my queen are probably good if they hit but I they could be he could have jacks or something but if a jack comes I got a straight right which is you know there's four jacks I got an eight% chance but at least I have a chance now um he h and haw and HS and HW and HS and homs and he calls well now I'm committed on the river I'm like I'm getting this I'm I'm getting this guy to fold so I put in and this is by the way again this takes three or four days to make it to the money sure it's stupid to put all your chips at risk with nothing right the river comes I have nothing I have kingh high I can't beat I I can't beat I can't beat any let alone to and at this point I'm pretty convinced he has Aces King Aces or Kings I'm almost positive he has Aces or Kings right and I just decided screw it and at this point I don't know I've put 10,000 in I bet like another 15,000 in essence it breaks me and it breaks break him it's not quite all in but I yeah to me it was more intimidating to bet less than all in than all in so I make this big bet that for an Essence if one of us loses we lose and this guy goes It's called tanking he starts thinking and he's thinking and he's thinking and I haven't been playing remember and I am having a hell of a time controlling my emotions my heart is pounding I am sweating I am shaking this was not what's supposed to be happening right I have thoughts in my mind I think I need to tell him I'm bluffing because I'm afraid I'm going to have a heart attack I was literally scared but I'm so competitive I'm thinking am I willing to die to carry out this Bluff like I I was actually thinking about my health and I couldn't because I hadn't been playing and now I'm playing for these stakes and my heart is just beating and I'm I'm I'm just I'm actually contemplating for minutes telling him I'm bluffing or showing him my hand like because I I think that and this guy he was just kind of looking that he wasn't really looking at me and if he did he didn't get the right read and he folded and I was like oh my God thank God now within a day or two I kind of got back into my my rhythm but yeah so um you know but being able to stick with a read and go with it is definitely yeah you know something that you know that I think came out of it um yeah I mean reading people there there's there's a lot of things risk management bankroll um but we're going to do this again I think this has been F I think I'm going to go sit down now I'm going to think about what I've learned today about poker and about the early part of our conversation my the impact of Poker on my life and we'll come back and do this again I think I'm going to have a lot of questions about just some of the um this was a lot about the table I'm have a lot of questions about what happens outside the table and the lifestyle around it so this has been amazing that's probably a more interesting conversation in a lot of ways yeah it's great I love it Randy thanks for let me dive in here I'm going to go put a lot of thought into like the around the table questions we're going to come back to Poker part two for sure great awesome stuff Randy professional poker player at one time at one point and uh still one of the best Risk Managers I know so that's great thanks for being here again uh Hey guys if if you want to like And subscribe and uh you know tell your friends about Tales of abundance come check out the website […] and uh we're we're glad you're here thanks for coming come back again soon

Professional Poker with Randy Lorensen

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