Core Values and Company Culture: How to Define Them

Show notes

Core Values and Company Culture: How to Define Them and Live Them Out

Core values are more than words on a wall. Dr. John Oberg and Randy Lorensen explain how to define core values, how to tell whether they're being lived out, and how they shape hiring, decisions and culture.

They start with the difference between personal and company values, and why the company's values are its DNA. They walk through the exercise they use: start with a list of about 400 values, cross off half and keep narrowing until you have a short set. They share examples from their own companies, like "undivided" (debate, decide, then commit) and "well received".

Then they cover the step most people skip: the leadership team lives the values for 90 days before rolling them out. They explain why aspirational values are dangerous, how to recognize values in action, and why cultural fit matters more than competency fit when hiring.

They finish with common mistakes, including weaponizing values against people, how to run a blameless conversation, how to tell whether your values are working, and how to build values in your own department of a bigger company.

A Core Values Exercise for Teams, and Building Company Culture

What you'll discover:

Personal values vs company values
The core values exercise: start with 400 words
Why leaders should live them for 90 days first
Why aspirational values are dangerous
Hiring for cultural fit vs competency fit
Don't weaponize your core values

Timestamps

[00:00] Welcome: core values and culture
[01:30] Company values apply to individuals too
[02:53] More than words on the wall
[04:15] Personal values vs company values
[05:38] When a role clashes with your values
[07:01] Helping employees uncover their own values
[08:25] The values exercise: start with 400 words
[09:48] A contractor who broke the core values within hours
[11:12] Grouping and refining the words
[12:36] Building company values as a team
[13:58] Core values as company DNA
[15:20] Guidance on how things get done
[16:42] Example: undivided (debate, decide, commit)
[18:05] Example: well received
[19:28] A short, clear correction
[20:50] DNA vs mutation
[22:13] How values make tough decisions easier
[23:36] When your values don't match your company's
[24:59] Healthy conflict, then commit
[26:24] Adjusting within 30 to 90 days
[27:47] A new muscle for managers
[29:11] Leaders live the values for 90 days first
[30:34] Defining excellence: treating people better than they deserve
[31:56] Why aspirational values are dangerous
[33:21] Recognizing values in action
[34:44] Don't keep changing the values
[36:07] Values that attract people
[37:31] Core values in interviews
[40:17] Cultural fit vs competency fit
[41:40] Mistakes inside vs outside the values
[43:03] Clarity attracts the right people
[44:25] Common mistakes and how to avoid them
[45:49] Weaponizing core values
[47:11] When someone isn't following them
[48:33] Blameless conversations
[49:56] How to tell whether your values are working
[52:43] Balance, and Stephen Covey
[55:29] High performance without cloning yourself
[56:52] Accountability and responsibility in relationships
[58:16] Faith, fear and uncertainty
[1:01:01] Building values in your department of a big company
[1:02:25] Why organizations exist
[1:03:48] Core values as an anchor

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About the hosts

This is a hosts-only episode with Randy Lorensen and Dr. John Oberg (Anthony Marino isn't on this one). Host bios are on the host pages linked below.

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Related episodes

Meet the hosts: Randy Lorensen · Dr. John Oberg · Anthony Marino

Transcript

A full transcript is below. It was generated automatically from the episode audio, so expect some spelling errors in names and terms.

[00:08] Dr. John Oberg joining me as always my co-host Randy Lorensen hey Randy hey John it's an exciting episode today getting into core values culture we talked about this on a previous episode and are going to go a lot deeper today so I'm looking forward to this yeah I love this topic I think you know we uh when you talk about core values and culture it's you know people used to call them soft skills and uh I found out recently that soft skills is a term that came from the military like you had things that were like metal like tanks and artillery and those if you working on those they were hard skills and if you working on things like finance that was soft skills and we consider finance a hard skill now maybe we should consider core values a hard skill too maybe maybe after this episode listeners have a different perspective if they think that core values are soft skills and less important well John let's let's jump in so this is an area to The Listener that John has really helped me right because I think like a lot of people I'd heard core values and I'd heard companies and people talk about them and I think a lot of people have a misperception I think I think a lot of companies have core values because they think they're supposed to but they don't they haven't done the proper work and I I don't think they're implemented right very often is my opinion and I know I think that's one of the things in my company that we've done a very good job of you know W with your help like giving us the right steps so I'm excited for the listeners to be able to hear this process I know it really helped me and I think it'll I think it'll help people listening and we're talking about this more from a company culture today but I also think all of this applies to individual the C you know that I think this can be applied to an individual as well but we're going to talk about it more from the perspective of the company yeah same concept different different application I think every everyone has core values whether they kind of are explicit about them or not and we're going to talk about like company values uh and how those can get used and how they maybe shouldn't be used in some cases yeah well let let's jump in with with why right so in your experience why do people do this what's the real impact of having good properly clear properly executed core values there mean there two questions I think you just asked there's why do people do it and why should people do it those might be different answers and so I think the the the time that I became most aware of core values was after a book that Jim Collins called built to last and then he wrote one uh good to great after that and one of the things he talked about was core values and the importance of core values and certainly there were lots of corporate core values around before that and people had talked about it before that that was just the book that brought into my into my level of awareness there are people that have been you know in the business World longer than I have that will remember books before that and whatnot and so I think what you had was in some companies the core values that were plastered up on the wall right and said hey hey here are our core values here's what we do here's what we believe and if that's all that gets done I think there's a real danger there I think that there are many employees in the world even today that look at their company core values and look at the behavior of the leadership and uh the unspoken core value is one of hypocrisy like you don't follow the core values and that's not an okay thing and so I think core values done well uh they they really guide the behavior of every person every job every role inside the company about what you do and not that you should talk about core values in every single internal conversation of the company but you should be able to in other words you should be able to say like hey here's how this conversation does or does not fit our core values and what really what you're aiming at is alignment right and so alignment of the company from top to bottom and you know we've talked about um conflict in you know at times you and I both on the air and off the air and you know there's only three things that cause conflict in the world it's a difference of goals a difference of style and behavior or or a difference in values and and core values can create conflict so if I have a personal set of values that don't align to the company values I'm going to naturally have conflict and so you know I would offer to people that if someone's personal values don't align to the company values that maybe someone should be working someplace different and I think there's some employees that believe that the company values should be changed to their personal values and that's I mean that's a choice people can you that's a conversation that can be had but generally speaking the company's core value are going to win out right so an example I don't know maybe somebody that works for an oil company that is a big environmentalist might be a I mean potentially right yeah that I mean problem that philos I think just hypothetically that seems like an easy kind of conflict but I would say even some of the oil and energy companies right now there might be less conflict because they're becoming necessarily more understood yeah I think that um I mean somebody that somebody that works for the church that doesn't believe in God might be a con I mean there there's that happens all the time too though I think that's okay as long as they understand the values of the church and way to operate I think the ones were I see it happening were like um you know somebody once uh asked if I wanted to go consult for a company that was dealing in an industry that I just um philosophically didn't think was aligned to my values and so I couldn't I couldn't say yes to that because I couldn't align to uh the reason they were doing what they were doing and so I just had to draw some I had to draw some lines and so like I know a marketing agency I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about there was significant financial benefit but it would didn't fit where you thought you should be going right yeah and it would have been 180 degrees from kind of my personal belief system and I'd have been doing bad in the world it wasn't is wasn't just neutral it was just it was actively doing something that was uh not good and um yeah and so I just I wasn't and it wasn't like I was going to take out a newspaper article and call the company out it just didn't right didn't fit with what I was doing so okay and I think that can be neutral too like I you know separate and distinct and different from that you know there was a I had a um Consulting agreement at one point in my career where it led to someone in the gaming industry offering me a job to come work in that industry and it just it I don't think negatively of the gaming industry I I go to to casinos when I'm in Las Vegas and I'm not a big Gambler and but I have no problem playing blackjack or craps or whatever and I don't have any judgment on people that do that either but it was the industry that I wanted to be in because um it just wasn't it wasn't where I was headed and so so I think I think that you can have like values misalignment where there's active conflict I can I think you can have values that just don't line up and it's kind of neutral and I think then you can have values that kind of are really creative and and a you know 1 plus 1 equals 3 kind of situation where things are really really good and so I think you know in order to understand where somebody is with that the company has to understand its core values the person um needs to understand their core values and sometimes companies I think can appropriately help people uncover their own values and you and I have talked about how to do that inside of a company in a very appropriate managerial way and then find alignment and then if someone doesn't have a values fit you know helping them move on to someplace where where they might have a better fit okay yeah well let's let's dive into identifying the core values right because I think a lot people I think this is a big place where a lot of people get tripped up is they don't spend enough time time they don't get values that are the right values for that company yeah right because you may start a company and have one set of core values I may start one and somebody else The Listener has a completely different core I think I think people think there's like a right core values right but and and you may even start two different companies and have different core values slightly because of the company or the industry right so how do does a company or even a person go about identifying the core values I know there's an exercise you took me through but let's let's dive into how do they do this I think that's a big step and I think my my exercise is a lot different than the one that like Jim Collins talked about he talked about the mission to Mars where you take some people in your company who aren't in the room and you go through Who You'd send to Mars if they had to if they had to represent your company and then you talk about all the commonalities and the common threads of what exists in the company and that's a really I think a fine way of getting to core values not not the exercise that I've used um the exercise that I've used is you start with a list of you know there's 400 values that we've got on a list and you cross off 200 of them on day one and then you cross off a 100 of them on day two and then 50 on day three and then you know eventually you get down to like less than 10 and then you pull out a thesaurus and you start thinking through like how are these defined in the dictionary and are there words that are similar but different and so several of the core values from my company didn't come from that list right but they that list got me close and then got me thinking like how do I use the dictionary and find exactly the right and I think that's an important part of the value system is making sure that you have you know the value and then the definition of that value so everyone's really really clear on what that word means and then for the companies that I work with we take it one step further and say okay because we believe this here's how we act and it's super super clear and that way everyone knows what's expected of them and and in my companies we talk to people in the interview process and in regularly like about the core values and we talk about the fact that if you operate outside of these core values that your job could be at risk and if you're operating inside the core values then your job is probably safe and so um and is very few core values Corrections we have to make but we had it happen recently where we were doing some website development with a contractor and we didn't have the core values conversation because they were a contractor and we usually do and it got skip the step got skipped and within eight hours of that contract starting uh they started violating core values left right and center and we tried to course and we couldn't do it and after working together for less than 20 hours we you know relieved them of their responsibilities made them available to Industry which is code for fired them and found another contractor and when we interviewed that contractor we made sure we walked with the core values in detail before we hired them to make it really really clear about our expectations of working together and that and that contract not shockingly has gone really well so but you had that because you had figured out the core values right so I want to go back to that step because I don't want to for The Listener for somebody that has never done done this before let's dive into I think it's helpful so […] you're going to look at it I I'll just tell you somebody went through it there's 350 400 words there probably growing since I did the exercise I'm guessing it's a living document and you look at it and you're like okay I got to pick by the way on theide how many core values do you want people to get down to less than six yeah less than six and and the goal is not to pick from this list I that's the hard part right if you go to this list and try to pick from the list I think that's almost impossible I think the first thing you've got to do is like cross off half or more like cross off the ones that definitely don't fit and then you know they there the list today is alphabetical it may change in the future but then just kind of like group the words together that make sense to you together and see if there's a better word in the thesaurus for you or see if one of them fits better than another but a lot of times it's like well these four words are all kind of the same thing to me and they you know I don't need all four of them but which one of them but and I think that's part of the work that gets done and I think you shouldn't try and do it all in one day so let me just step back it's like cross off 100 on the day one then put it away right you know then come back the next day and cross off the next as many as you can and at least half so what we did for my company yeah there were four of us on the executive team at the time and we each took the list and day one everybody crossed off roughly half right and that was pretty easy like the first day is pretty easy you're like oh definitely not this definitely not this definitely not this but we all did it individually we didn't do it as a group yeah and then the next day I told everyone okay cut it in half again and just go through it again and it gets a little tougher but you're still things that the day before you didn't want to cross off yeah you're like oh yeah I can cross that off right cuz now you've seen some of the better words and you just keep doing that now I don't remember exactly when I want to say when it got down to about 30 or 40 it started becoming hard you're like well I like that word I don't want to cross out off and then getting from 20 to 10 and I think what we did is when we each had 10 we met and we talked about it and you put all 10 of them together so you might between four of you you don't have 40 words between four of you you might have 15 or 20 words right like I think you know like I think we might have had one word that we all had right but all the others were different um one of our core values was Clarity was not on my list but one of my partners had it and I'm like oh yeah that's really great and it's probably a word that i' so sure and then we cut it down it's hard at the end just just so people are listening it was hard getting to like six yeah and then we got it to three and then to your point we added a word that was a madeup word because nothing we had to actually make up and you know we had four but there was a concept that was really clear to you that you wanted to grasp that Concept in a word that didn't really exist and so you made up yeah it it was following premium cabinet systems and processes to get expected results is what it is but we made up a word PRI right so we had four and now everyone in your company knows what praide means no one outside the company does but that's okay but we went to three and then four so it just it's a I don't know so is that well it's worth mentioning too that that core values are designed to be an internal tool to kind of share with your team about expectations and what is designed to have and so I encourage companies that I work with like not to use your core values as a marketing like marketing needs to be for marketing's sake and management needs to be for management sake and if the two have overlap that help each other awesome that's fantastic but I'm really clear with my team that the the core values are about the DNA of the company and and it's not it's not strictly speaking necessary for someone who's consuming services to understand that DNA they can if they want to there's like they're not going to hide anything they're totally transparent but it's not a marketing it's not a marketing tool right this is an internal management tool about what's acceptable and what's not acceptable and and without that context it might be hard for a customer to digest that and so we try to keep those internal in nature for our companies so that people don't like there's no there's no felt need to defend any of that right if that makes sense okay and we're going to jump into how to use them definitely so um so in fact let's do that right now how do core values translate into daily actions right like what like how do you take so so somebody has their core values y what how does that impact what happens day-to-day in a company or with them individually yeah and that's where it comes back to the like it comes back to like how because we believe this here's what we do you know I tell people it's like whether you're a general managing a 20,000 person army or a person who's handling accounting for three people the core values should at least give you guidance about the way that you should do things right and so that that's what you really want is because we believe in this here is what we do and you know for my core values it talks a lot about how we treat people internally how we think about our customer uh how we handle things when no one's looking like those are the types of things we talk about and you know that give give a listener an example I'm just going to pull mine up real quick I think that's probably the best way to to get into it and so um and and this the document that I'm pulling up now is available to all of our internal people so that everybody can look at this document anytime they want to see it and they can understand like this is what's expected of me right and so we have six core values you know our first one is alignment as an example I'm going to I'll read to you what it says and um as I pull it up definition so we Define this the way we want to Define it after we understood alignment from the dictionary we looked in the thorus and here's what it means to us so us for us it means the the entire team shares the common vision for the company we work collaboratively to accomplish each goal while maintaining a sense of appropriate transparency and accountability across departments we hire employees whose personal missions are in alignment with the corporate Mission we're undivided in our approach we can debate and disagree then decide to commit to the decision despite differences in opinions and perspectives okay now what that means we do we clearly understand the stakeholders and their interests in any situation before offering advice we don't just come in hot and start telling people what to do uh we consider the impact of our actions on others before we act we make choices that align to the objectives of the company and we call out any conflicts of interest so we can navigate them together okay and that that's alignment for us and we have six values like that to tell people exactly how to operate so I'll give you one more example I think that's probably meaningful because we had we we hardly ever have people to violate the core values but this one got violated in the last year and we had to inter intervene so connection is one of our values and we we say that strong relationships are built on a foundation of personal responsibility and accountability we improve connection by sharing information with each other by being trustworthy when information is shared uh by giving others the benefit of the doubt and by accepting without judgment there are different uh points of view which create a better environment and more opportunities what that means we do is that we're transparent with the people who have the context to receive the information so we don't just give people information we make sure they have the context to understand it we recognize the importance of both the content and the packaging of our message to people and we package our messages to be well received meaning that it's not good enough just to say the facts we actually have to be thoughtful and and uh Discerning in how we talk to people and we're aware of our impact on other people and so here's how that played out we had someone who reached out to me and was frustrated about a situation but they then um directed that frustration at me personally no big deal that happens people are frustrated I can live with that but then they decided they were going to go around my authority and undermine my authority and told me as such in in a in a text message to me and and it was just it was uh gross and subordination for sure now I assume the best intent because that's what we do when we're connected right we accept that people have a different point of view we give people the benefit of the doubt so rather than me coming in hot and being really emotional I recognized this person was frustrated by things that were understandable even if I didn't know what they were I recognized they were frustrated I gave them the benefit of the doubt and I also recognized that they stepped over the core values and and so there had to be an intervention and so I I made a quick phone call I said hey got your message uh and they immediately knew what the call was going to be about like yeah I was like let me just start by saying it sounds like you're frustrated about some things that are pretty reasonable and we'll definitely handle those things to make sure that we we get those frustrations handled it's like great it's like and and you did you communicated in a way that wasn't very connected didn't you yeah I'm really sorry about that said I understand that but that's not a way we talk to each other and so I don't want to make this a bigger deal than it is but I also want to make sure it never happens again and that was the end of the conversation like yeah it won't ever happen again I'm really sorry it's like great that's what my expectation is and it needs to not never happen again okay it's great it's it's kind of like it's the guidelines the set of rules that govern everything that happens in your company is that fair to say it is and I think it's probably worth mentioning that while I had that one conversation with that one person you know that's the only conversation I could think of that person's worked to me together with me for you know eight years and but the number of times I've said to them hey you did this and that's a really good example of alignment hey you did this and that's a really good example of connection both to them individually and in front of their peers and subordinates that happens all the time good yeah so and I'm talking that's happened hundreds of times right and so so the level of positive reinforcement we give for core values is consistent okay yeah that's really really important I I think I've heard you say or somebody else or probably both the phrase before that core values are the things that you will you would rather shut the company down than not follow these right yeah and that's and then in in my companies where I have you know the majority of ownership inside the company the core values aren't Up For Debate right like I don't like the that people want their voice heard and they want to shape the company hey that's awesome but there was a DNA right that existed when the company was born and anything else is a mutation and so we've been very thoughtful about our core values and so as such am I saying that I I would never ever be open to changing them no I'm not saying that but it's probably not a conversation you want to bring up with any regularity in our in our companies and you know there's there's a really famous example of a a CEO at HP hul Packard who came in and made some changes to the core values and almost killed the company and then the board stepped in and reasserted the values that huet and Packard put together when the company was formed and I think you know you can have debates about whether the company was saved or it split up or whatever the case may be but it was it was you know it was cataclysmic and so um yeah we're just we're really really serious about our core values and it's not something that the executive team gets to debate that it's just really powerful right I mean it really is powerful to know it's it's knowing who you are yeah right and I think leing into our next question tells you where you're going also right so can you give me an example maybe a story about one of your companies somebody you you've coached all these companies a place where a company had a core value they had a big decision to make and it helped them navigate that and and make a tough decision much easier and make it clear what direction should be taken yeah I in in my consulting firm I had a really big opportunity to go have a really big Consulting contract that would have been you know huge revenue for us and it wasn't aligned to who we were it just wasn't aligned to where we were headed and that and we so like I mentioned earlier we turned that opportunity down and um it just wasn't the right wasn't the right referral for us and that was a that was a painful financial decision but it was the right decision for us and so um yeah so I think that you know um we had a decision where I we as I mentioned a contractor was let go recently that was very painful because that caused a lot of extra work and it and it spun a couple of very senior Executives it cost it cost the majority of a weekend that nobody wanted to work on that weekend and and it was um it was painful work to do but it was the right call and so upholding core values isn't always the easy path right okay what would you tell somebody that works in a company and they're having a hard time squaring their personal values with the company's core values what what would your advice be to that person I mean that probably not a very popular thing to say but I think if if my values didn't align with a company's core values I need to think very seriously about finding a company where my values are committed or if they're not so out of alignment like if it's not against my core values it's just not perfectly aligned then just maybe I find places where the work that I am doing in my volunteer work or my after hours or an appropriate you know uncon icted side hustle or whatever like I think those are like not every single company that I work with as a consultant has exactly the same core values that I have right right well the resources that a person gains from working at that company might allow them to do other things that that align with their value I think there's a difference between a conflict in values and just not perfectly aligned you know if they're directionally the same that's one answer if they're you know exactly opposite that's a different answer okay yeah I I think that makes sense and I think that's really important and you know our climate today um you know again we're we're writing we're we're giving podcasts that are hopefully Evergreen meaning that they're not temporal but we're you know we live in a time where there's less and less discourse and healthy debate and I think that we I'd be an advocate of more and more healthy debate where we can have differences of opinion but still move forward to the same goal together and that's in our company we talk about debate decide commit and then what people know about me is that in that debate decide commit environment we're going to debate rigorously we're going to have healthy conflict right and then we're going to make a decision and then we don't revisit that decision unless there's new data and that means that if someone didn't like the decision they do not have free reign to just bring that up and complain about it because we've all made a commitment together and we've heard as much as you know as much as the time allows for for us to debate decide and commit and there's a place to debate and decide but at the end of the day there a decision has to get made and different decisions have different levels of authority and when someone I've made the the decision to delegate things to people who work for me and they've made decisions that I haven't you know not the decision I would have made but I made the decision to delegate to them and that means that I needed to support those decisions and be clear with them about which decisions have to rise back up to me and which decisions they get to make and sometimes those decisions have been suboptimal and a lot of times they've been decisions better than I would make too yeah let's let's Circle back to the the scenario where there's an employee that maybe their personal beliefs values don't align with companies right now put yourself in the rooll of the CEO or the the manager at the company do you really want that person sticking around well we evaluate that in the companies that I work with and so we look at um if someone's aligned to each core value great thumbs up if someone is um aligned to that core value most of the time but there's enough times we've seen that not be in alignment then we have a period of adjustment and so we try to get that solved within 30 to 90 days depending on how serious the issue is and if someone's just clearly against the core value then there's a very short TR like a very short correction period And if not we find a find a way to move on yeah my my thought process is from my experience I guess that if that person's values don't align the chances of them being happy there being a productive employee are pretty slim I mean it could happen but it's pretty likely yeah and and it's not like we're like looking to swing the ax and like fire fire fire like it's not the point like we talk about these things in the interview and we're very clear about who we are in the interview so there is no mistaking that going in yeah I I I know I've had I've had conversations getting rid of people and bringing up like look you just doesn't seem like you fit what we're doing here yeah and you can all just see how sense a relief come ac they they knew it right and they've been wanting to quit or what like it's been it just wasn't a good fit right and they land somewhere else where they fit better and you know and it's important that that managers understand how to take each management conversation back to the core Val again not saying they should take every conversation back to the core values but they should at least be able to identify how the core values are playing in each management conversation this is a new muscle for most managers and it takes a significant amount of brain power for a short period of time to get that right but once you've practiced for you know 20 hours of ation over the period of a month it becomes like second nature like it's not it's not as hard so I want to fully acknowledge the like the energy it takes upfront to do this work is something yeah but it is worth it and to the extent that core values selected are not aspirational they're what are actually happening to it's going to be easier to the extent that the values are aspirational I don't recommend that I think that's a really really hard environment to be in let's let's dig there okay so I cuz I think this is is a big problem with a lot of companies right they you gave the example earlier they they create the core values they put them on the wall they look nice and they never think about them again or they pick buzzwords or just it's just but they don't really mean it and the hypocrisy that's more detrimental than not having values At All by the way oh yes absolutely so how if somebody's listening they have a company they're like I'm going to do your exercise I'm excited I'm going implement this but so step one we go through the exercise of figuring out and defining all of it that that by itself might take a couple of weeks right right if you really work at it and so now you've got this document that has four to six words it's got the definition of each one it's got what that means for us the next step is the hardest one and the one that most people Skip and that is the leadership team lives them out for 90 days without telling anybody and just holding each other accountable to those core values to see if they're actually able to live out those values and if they're not able to which happens more often than you might think they come back to those values and say okay what are our values actually and that's okay it is okay and then that may and you may that may go on for a year like this is not something you just muscle through in two weeks and get them up on the wall and have and I've watched companies do it like let's make a let's make them a word like let's the first letter spells something out and that's like that generally doesn't go very well at that and you know me I like to move fast right this is not an area to move fast you know they talk you they say cut what measure twice and cut once I think you want to measure a hundred times and cut once here I don't think you want to push these out to people until the leadership team is really living them out once the leadership team is explicit living them out inside the leadership team and they're bringing every conversation able to bring it back to core values regularly then I think the leadership team can slowly start to talk about that with people over the next 90 days then you can start to think about putting posters up on the walls I look I I I think this is a big step and I know I don't know if you remember this when you when you helped us with ours one of ours was excellence and part of the definition that we created for excellence was handling situations with Grace and treating people better than they deserve to be and that was one of those where we had to ask can we do this and part of it was part of it was me that I tend to be very AB like a lot of times I'm abrupt and I want to get I want to get things done and not always patient and I'm like okay that's not exactly Grace all the time right and we had a member that's no longer part of the executive team now but was at the time that was way fiery than me right and and there was a real question between the two of us I I was like look can we do this so we didn't bring that yeah you're right we didn't bring that up to anybody till yeah it was at least 90 days and it was like can we do this and we had to constantly remind ourselves right well there was a couple if I recall correctly was like Hey guys is that like we had that conversation like hey guys is that actually that value and it was like o no it's not it's okay well then we can either change the behavior or change the value but let's not right let's not skip that step right so we had to that that was a real question and you know maybe it would have been better if it was a question to take it out but we felt like it was aspirational enough or worthy enough to personally grow toward it that it was worth seeing if we could you know almost like a challenge to see if we could do it and having aspirational values is really dangerous and I see you know a lot of companies they choose one or two aspirational values and I get it I I I get it but I I really encourage them you know companies to have few as few as or zero aspirational values because there's enough challenges in the world like making it more tough on yourself as a manager is not not generally the right call H you you know me I'm I'm not afraid to put put a little a little hurdle in the way just for fun is said generally so okay so somebody is they they've gone through the exercise they've got the right values they're they've decided you know what we can live these without being a hypocrite and everybody thinking thinking we're idiots and we don't follow our own values now it's like okay let's bring this to the team what do they do massive reinforcement and and mostly positive reinforcement but also reinforcement so you know I've I've done this a lot of different ways with companies but you know you can have like company bucks where every time somebody does something everyone gets 20 bucks company bucks every week to hand out and every time somebody does something that is one of the core values you know um personified they they give that out and they write down on the Buck here's what you did and here's the value that you lived and it's that type of grounded feedback it's not like hey Randy you lived out pried no that that doesn't count it was like hey Randy you did this thing you know you just talked to a customer and you went above and beyond to solve the problem and at the end of the day you know that's pried where are they where are they writing this on the back of the company Buck or if it's a remote environment they might be putting it inside of a a communication Channel like you know Google chat or slack or something like that and and and there's even companies like bonusly that will track this for you and um but you can do it just you know a spreadsheet like here's all and then you review that spreadsheet with the whole team so everyone sees all the different ways people are living out the core values and then there's some kind of like way to win and so you know one way to win would uh be like like a company store where you get to use those bucks for things that are hopefully high quality and meaningful not just chachki right that people throw away it's like real stuff or in one company um before I was working on type two diabetes we had Hershey bars with Post-it notes and the the Hershey bar had to have five Post-it notes on it before you were allowed to eat it right so so people knew like the four people before them who had done something to live out the value and so you play fun little games to like all the positive reinforcement and then you do have some negative reinforce like like the the corrective reinforc you have to have occasionally but it's a lot less okay yeah what what else I mean how else what else do you do I think if if you can bring those positive reinforcements to every conversation and make sure that managers are kind of sharing those stories and peers are sharing those stories and you do those things publicly you start to live out those values really really regularly and and I think then not changing the values you know not shifting PE like that's why you want to do all that work upfront to make sure you really get it right and think about all the unintended consequences and have those convers ation early on you know I I was a part of an ownership group of a company that we sold recently where we really really had some good core values but one of them was really aspirational and it it was hard and so there were times where as one of the ownership group I had to go to the CEO and say hey look here's that core value and like what what happened here today and and to to to this credit I mean he really really was passionate about living them out and that meant cleaning up his side of the street sometimes too and recognizing where there was a miss and moving on okay yeah so this is the next question is one of the areas that I don't think I expected to be a benefit and found it to be a great benefit okay the role that core values play in hiring people attracting Talent retaining that Talent talk can you talk about that a little bit yeah I think I think there's a couple ways this can play out some good some bad right so if you have really attractive core values and they're really really straightforward and the applicant comes into the company and you're not living them out like very few things can be more detrimental than that like that can be really really tough right but if you have really really strong core values that are attractive to people and you live them out you get people saying things like I've never been in an environment like this before it's one of the best workplaces ever it's a lot of the things that people want in in their work and I was uh looking at some research uh some jobs data last week and one of the top five things that people want in a job and this was a shocker to me was they wanted to have a best friend work which I mean we can have a whole connection yeah and so when when you think about what birds of a feather who flock together you talk about people who have similar goals similar Styles and similar values and so if you're putting people into the room that have similar goals and similar values and different styles hopefully from A diversity perspective but but are able to be accepting of one another's Styles then you have a really powerful Community working together towards something and this would be really akin to um sports that you've played or a musical Orchestra where there's you know everyone's got the same score but everyone's playing different instruments and so they all have the same goal they all the same values but they have different instruments and styles the way they play those instruments to come together to create beautiful Harmony um and Melody in the music and so I think great companies are a really great analogy to that is how do you get people with the same sheet of music goals right the same values about music and in the Arts and the creative part and then different styles but you know Woodwinds versus percussion versus you know brass and all that stuff and how do you put it all together so let's be specific yeah so you're interviewing yeah where how do core values play into that when we get to a certain part or hold on better question stop let me yeah come back to that before you're interviewing yeah in marketing do you use it do you use it in the job description not generally yeah I Do by the way I don't think it's a bad thing to do but again back to the marketing part without context I think core values can be misconstrued and so I I don't I don't think there's a problem with you doing it so feel free I think lots and lots and lots of companies do that um I find that I want to have a very robust conversation around it at the appropriate part of the interview process and that's the cultural interview which is generally toward the end of the interview um so I think here here's what I would not like to see happen is I would like not like to have HR and marketing get involved in scoping the core values for the benefit of recruiting which I've seen happen for the benefit of marketing and for for sales and like that I think that's a great way to uh get core values to try to be something they're not they need to first and foremost be the core values for the management and alignment of the company internally if they happen to be okay for recruiting they happen to be okay for marketing hey that's fine but that is like I'm not looking for someone to come pick on my core values from a marketing or an HR perspective that's not like these are a management tool and I'm really really really convicted about that I I'm thinking I put them in more as a way for people to disqualify themselves sure like if they can't follow these please don't apply well and I don't I don't know a lot about this tool called the culture index but I've heard amazingly good things about it and I think one of the things it does and someone from culture index can come jump on the show with us and give us correction and tell us if I'm wrong but I think one of the things that does really really well it helps people understand how to get really well aligned at the company level which is really important so okay one of it does okay so so back to you say you say don't use them in the in the I'm saying I don't I think and the reason for that is I've seen HR and marketing teams try to turn them into something they're not and it's like no we need to we need to change the core values so that we can Market this way we need to change the core values so that we can recruit this way it's like yeah no for me it's simply cut paste here's the here's the four core values with the definition of what they mean yeah I think people need more context and if you can't do well ours are pretty clear I think but if you can't do it please don't apply that's pretty much what it says so regardless somebody now goes through how do you use it in the hiring process like what yeah so so we you know in when when I'm involved and I'm I'm the architect of the hiring process you know the first thing we do is have a really really clear job description compensation all that stuff and then we have the where we go through assessment and we assess someone's competency before we assess the cultural fit and it's even though the cultural fit is I would say arguably more important than a competency fit I would say cultural fit is more important we do we do interview for that second because once you have a cultural fit and an emotional connection with someone in that way it's hard to objectively assess their competence right interesting and so so the goal is to objectively assess their competence and then assess culture afterwards even though it's more important I know people say well I want to assess culture because if they don't get past that they don't get to cultural they don't get to you know they don't I just want to know right up front I get it I hear that I disagree with it and and I disagree really firmly with it because if you can't objectively assess someone's competence they're going to be a great cultural fit and not be able to do the job and then you've made a big problem for both of you yeah no that's interesting I I've never thought about it from that that standpoint once I like you I'm going to give you the benefit of doubt in ways maybe I shouldn't when I'm evaluating you it's almost impossible not to yeah so so I'm really really firm on that and I've got a I've got a a well-rounded professional opinion about that that you should always always always assess competence before cultural fit even though cultural fit I will I will acknowledge is more important in my world than competence I get it h so interesting then when we get to the cultural part it's like hey there's some things you should know about our our culture and so um the these are our core values they're they're not debatable they're not up they're not up for uh boundary discussion and if someone makes a mistake and they're operating within the core values the chances are that their job is likely going to be less at risk but and that's even if they make big mistakes in some cases if you make a small mistake as an employee of this company outside of our core values there's a decent chance the job is at risk not saying it always will be but like just understand where that really bright line is we give people a really you know large area to play in we draw a very very very very very very bright line and if someone's on the wrong side of that bright line it's a much more difficult conversation despite regardless of the of the size of the mistake that's made yeah I I think the only thing I might add to that if I may is that I think people they see that as leadership knowing where you're going and I think that attracts most people right I I know coaching kids young you know young boys in football one of the things that I don't think they realize they want is strong leadership and be held accountable and I think core values and and having that is I think it's attractive to people they want to be a part of an organization that's built that way for the most part yeah I would say it a little differently I would say that the people who I want in those roles are attracted to that and the people that wouldn't like those roles are not attracted to it like I think there are people that are entrepreneurs that want to be doing it themselves and be their own boss and that's that is a thing and it's a really important thing for our world and I think those people would be less excited about working inside of somebody else's structure they want to make their own structure and that and and I I coach a lot of those people and have them as clients and I really encourage that and so I think that when you are really clear about what you want you attract the people to the you attract the people to that thing and there are different things that attract different people for different reasons like you know I I um there are lots of jobs that I couldn't or shouldn't do you know I I I work with a lot of Physicians and um some surgeons and I tell them if I picked up a scalpel in your operating theater would you stop me knowing that I don't have never been a medical school and they said absolutely great well there are things I'm an expert into and that's my operating theater right and so I think recognizing were were the boundaries of it's really easy to understand the boundaries of a surgeon right I think Executives don't have that clear set of boundaries sometimes unfortunately and so places where we can draw those boundaries and help people understand both the expertise that we bring to the table as leaders in some cases but for me you've also been talk about the limitations of my of my knowledge set or the limitations of my expertise or the limitations of my ability or I've got lots of limitations that you know better than most people so if I can acknowledge what those limitations are and then draw people around me that that uh complement that skill set then I'm building a better Organization for sure let's dig a little more into the mistakes people make right because I I think I think this is one of those areas where if people aren't going to do it right you're kind of better off not doing it so what are some of the mistakes people you see people make and how do they avoid them you know that company that that I sold with is part of the ownership group recently I think the places where people stepped out of line with the core values you found people making shortcuts so there's like an efficiency gain to be had and people tried to cut a corner or they shouldn't have tried to cut a corner and in some cases that cost a lot more than the cut Corner in some cases they cut a corner and got away with it but the risk just wasn't worth it and so I think you know so in in my company it's about you know um there there's a couple values we have one is about like it talks explicitly about doing the work the right way especially when no one's looking you know in my personal values uh my daughter's you know in her 20s now but one of my core values the acid test for me is if I had to explain this to my 8-year-old daughter could I do it in a way that I'm proud of love that you know and that's like that's a for me that's a really serious asset test probably not the right acid test for everybody but for me that's a real like if I have to do a gut check moment and if I start finding myself like tap dancing in my head around my eight-year-old daughter conversation something's wrong something's really wrong and I need to get light on that immediately and that generally means going to a mentor or a friend or a coworker and and getting really honest about the conversation so I don't make a big mistake what about weaponizing core values talk about that yeah yeah this is weaponizing anything can be hard I think let's talk about for the listeners what weaponizing something is and I I as you know about me I've got a real sensitivity to people weaponizing things they have no business weaponizing and so we see this in our society especially with like mental illness terms when someone um calls somebody else oh that person's bipolar and you're not two therapists talking in a room about someone being clinically bipolar to help them get better that is a great great example of someone name calling like that's that's as that's as bad as calling someone an or whatever else you want to call them it's a form of character assass fation and in my world totally inappropriate right because what you're doing is you're making an assessment especially if it's a person who's not a clinical therapist and you're really just name calling right and so you can you can definitely find people who weaponize core values in the same way by trying to point out all the ways somebody else isn't using a core value versus looking in the mirror about all the ways that that I should be living out the core values as a leader right and as a leader as a manager it's important to hold that boundary from a managerial perspective from an accountability responsibility perspective and a manager's uh called to do that as a part of their job description but that's really different than if you and I were co-workers and I start name calling right like that's just not a you know that's not a core value that's not it's like hey that's not actually a helpful conversation either but let's take the flip side of that let's say somebody isn't using following the core values what's that person supposed to do I think there's a couple things if if it's appropriate to interview and ask questions like let's just role play for a second if you're if we're co-workers and you're not upholding a core value you're not pried right so instead of me saying hey Randy you're not being pried right now like if I were to say that how would you naturally respond to think most people are going to get defensive right right yeah yeah and so if I said hey Randy I noticed the way you handled that with the customer can we talk about that for a minute yeah so um it's really important for for the entire company to handle things in a certain way and I think maybe you didn't mean for this to happen so I'm offering the best intent but is it possible that that wasn't pried because I noticed that this this and this didn't get done and maybe you just missed it or maybe you or maybe there's something going on I don't know about but I just wanted to ask for the benefit of the customer and the benefit of the that that's yeah I didn't really think about that well hey man if it's a miss and I can be supportive help you in that Miss I want to be here for you okay all right so so now okay so out of roleplay I'm protecting the brand and the company and you right I'm not blaming you like it's like a blameless interaction right okay now by the way I don't I don't teach people how to do that Reg I don't think that type of intervention happens very often or like employees aren't likely to do that to their peers right that's more of a manager and we don't ask people to either by the way so I think I think it's possible to but I would just I want to be clear to people who are listening like I don't ask or train people to do that I I do think that in the world of like I I just want to say in the world of like sexual harassment and inappropriate behavior and um I do think that that third party bystanders do need to step in and say things appropriately and need to be trained how to do that to have a healthy work environment as a rule and I think that we all have a responsibility to know how to intervene in those circumstances as a peer as a manager like I think there are times we have to step in and there's issue of like people not being included people being um you know you know I think there are times that everyone's got to got to know how to step in so I do think we need to have training on bystander intervention for sure um but appropriate bystander intervention and I think we're all we're all we all need to play a role in that that's that's just a tough conversation for sure but it needs to happen Okay so say we got a listener out there who they have core values maybe they've had them for years sure maybe they they've just created them or maybe they create them now in six months down the road they want to know are these working are am I aligned am I following what would you tell that person to to how to evaluate right part of the role of a leader they got to be able to evaluate and identify are am I doing it am I doing it right how how the hell do they know yeah I think an comp it's a great qu by the way thanks for con the go of a leader love it one of the Frameworks you have for the job description of a leader I dig it um I think for a leader you know there um core values are something that get looked at in our in our companies where they're really really ingrained in the day-to-day once a year we ask the question and at the very least about ourselves as a leadership team and we have a really open honest culture where I've had subordinates you know very rarely but occasionally come to me and say hey I don't think this fits our values and I I can't think of a time I can only remember one time I've been confronted but they weren't wrong people bring it up it's pretty sobering yeah right somebody brings it up yeah and so and so shutting that down I find would be really destructive to the culture so the answer I mean back to the question is how do you know is if somebody brings it to your attention I think that's one way I think another way is just look if if you can get the core values to say because these are our core values here's what we do or don't do and then just hold that up and take a peek at it occasionally and make sure like for my personal core values like I'm not going to say I look at them every day but I but I they're in front of me relatively often you know and I I I mean you've heard about my core values for years and years and years and so how I mean honest question we haven't talked about this before the show so I don't know how this is going to go but how would you say I do with my values I'm going to pull them up I'm going to pull up the screen so you can see them real quick since I happen to have him here I think you do well I mean I don't uh and you're not grading my paper yeah I mean I don't I'm not thinking about yours I'm thinking about mine right right right so natural ry's looking at him right now if you're not watching I think good I would say you do very well yeah you know great a great example of where I wasn't doing well um being deliberate is one of the my my values and it's really important to me it's in my companies as well but years and years ago the word that I use was balance and and what I realized is I wasn't always in balance and then what I realized is I didn't want to be in Balance like I recognized that that life is maybe balanced over the period of a decade but may not be balanced in per in in terms of a week or a month you know and I and I was really struggling with this and and I heard um or read I don't remember which but stepen cvy was talking about how people go out of balance at times and and the example I remember him using was that when when you have a child life goes out of balance for a while necessarily because if it doesn't go out of balance you don't take care of that child like you have a lot of responsibility to keep that human alive and that means being up in the middle of the night it means you know diapers and feeding and all these things and so you're not in balance for months or years and so and that's okay and so I was like oh the reason I'm struggling with this is because you know if I wanted to be in Balance every day like I I just that's not that's not really what I want what I really want is to be deliberate about my decisions and my investments of my time my energy my money like so I'm really talking about being deliberate so really took a word that wasn't what I was trying to get at and I made it much more clear about what I wanted it to be and and so that's a place that I found myself out of alignment with the value that I had written down because it wasn't i' had written it down in a way that I didn't mean to it wasn't it wasn't my intention yeah we changed I mentioned Excellence for 10 plus years was one of our core values yeah we very recently changed it to a five star customer experience and the truth is we didn't actually change the value we changed the wording because we the way we had to explain Excellence it wasn't a traditional yeah well the truth is you weren't excellence in every area wasn't an important value to you yeah it was creating that five customer experience so I think we actually I don't I I don't actually don't think we changed it we clarified it that's right right as what we really did yeah so it's still basically the same thing somebody starting out this can be maybe a little overwhelming right somebody's got we got all these steps and you're saying it's going to take all this time and then I have to do all this crap let's go back to the payoff I want to remind people why do you want to do longterm looking down the road what's the payoff here what how does this impact long-term success yeah the people that I work with um I I believe that managers have to manage I don't believe you like hire good people them like everyone has to be managed in some way shape or form but when we have high values alignment and high goals alignment and we understand our difference is it allows people to really go out and get their work done and be exceptional and so I find that I work with really really high performing teams you know it's great and I was I was my wife who also manages people um you know she and I talked about the fact that like I don't think that people who are mediocre at their job like working for me and I'm okay with that yeah like like it's great I I'm okay like that I accept uh and that's not a value judgment against who they are or what they do or I just but that's just not you know I'm going to work with high performing teams doesn't mean that everyone's going to work the number of hours that I work doesn't mean that everyone's going to work um the way that I work or on the things that I work on right but but the things that they are going to do are going to live up to the values that we have and so my values are alignment and authenticity connection deliberate continuous Improvement Integrity like those are things that my team knows backwards forwards they hear it all the time they I don't think they roll their eyes as often as they used to but it's just it's you know we but we really really hold people accountable to those things and they appreciate that we have a framework that they know what to expect from me and from leaders in the organization and it gives them a way of making decisions uh when I'm not around right they can they can go to the values and make good decisions in almost every circumstance or at least know when you know when I have to be called in and Which is less often than one might think what you've already talked about like you changed balance you realize that wasn't the right one yep any other challenges mistakes lessons we had to go back and make sure we Define them you know more clearly over time and you know it's like one of the things like what about accountability and responsibility like aren't those values and so for us it was like No And and the reason those aren't values is because those are a part of how we Define um other values and so if I look at like where does accountability come in you know if I go look at um connection we see accountability and responsibility as the underpinning to to successful relationships I had a PhD in the in uh clinical therapy once said that accountability and and um responsibility are kind of like fundamental to every relationship and that really stuck with me is like that's the that's the ground you stand on when you have a personal or professional relationship and so when we talk about connection those are just the P like those are the planks of connection for us and everyone's clear about that so we don't have accountability and responsibility as core values those are the planks of connection for us which means that people are accountable and they are responsible in our organizations and we've got that going going on and so um yeah how's this impacted your life like how John Oberg how has John Oberg benefited from this I think it g I'd love to hear your perspective on this too after I've answered the question and I didn't see this question coming so I have to react to it um and I'd love to hear how you think it's benefited me I think I think that it provides a level of self-certainty where I can step into some unknowns with a little bit more conf confidence maybe overconfidence in some cases but I can step into situations with a level of confidence that I have a set of grounding principles that that are an anchor for me that uh you know the waves and the wind aren't going to yank me away from these anchor like it's a really really certain anchor for me um similar to my faith and so that I can handle a lot more uncertainty around me because there's so much certainty and and you know my values are are really um about my faith and so I feel really convicted in all of that so I I deal with fear differently I deal with uncertainty differently and I can step into unknowns and and not be fearful scared whatever and and I think so for me I think what I've gained is a level of confidence and certainty that's helped me be okay in environments where other people may feel thrashed or you know uh battered by the wind and the waves and I just don't you know and that's by the way I don't want to at all say that I don't get battered by the wind and the waves I'm just saying that I have an anchor that gives me more confidence that I'm going to be okay through the storm like it still sucks and it still hurts and I still make mistakes and all those things happen and I still face it like anybody you know with similar circumstances so I'm not holier than now but I just think that I'm a little less thrashed by it than someone who wouldn't who doesn't have core values I think that's how I would say it's really and when I have to make really hard decisions and I don't know what to do I can go back to my values and I can place those hard decisions across that set of filters and say okay well can filter out things that don't fit my values immediately and make that a little easier yeah it's a I like the anchor analogy right or a found I think of it more as a foundation but same concept right so I'm going to answer for me and when you were saying you wanted me to answer I don't know if you're were saying for you or me but I'm I'm interest how you view it for me then we'll turn the tables around for you too I didn't disagree with anything you said and but I would even say for myself it's pretty much that right I think I think it is it's if you're thinking about running a company you have decisions to make and it's really really valuable to always have that core value yeah and you can just start and simply ask yourself does this fit our core values is this aligned right um I think it gives great clarity which ironically is our first core value is Clarity and I think it's I think that they help give that in almost every situation and similar to you I probably got this from you I I I tell people like look you're going to make mistakes it's okay as long as you make them within these core values it's just going to be okay yeah everything everything will work out now if they're outside the core values your job could be at risk right but it it just it gives a calm reassurance by the way that's not to say that someone's inside the values and not performing that their job is safe just to be clear about that but it's safer for sure but that mistake is GNA it's going to be okay right as long as they're doing it with the right in the right direction so you know one of the things we haven't really talked about is if I'm in a big company that has core values but they're not being lived out in this way and I want to have my department work on this what do I do because I don't want to go against the company core values I don't to write my own core values and so one of the things I've seen managers do in that circumstance both senior and Junior is say okay well here are the three words we're working on that align to the values so here are our three themes for the year and so you can pick themes within the values that are a subset of those values to work on and and that's a way that a manager can actually create create a frame inside their organization where they want to have more of this but it's not being provided by upper management like that's okay the goal is not to then go change the way they manage you you're going to get what you're getting and that's you can't change other people in that way and so the way that you create that is you say okay here are the things we're going to focus on here the three words for the year or for the month or for the quarter whatever the case may be that's a great way to say like it's not it's not changing core values of the company but you give people a focus and about what's acceptable not acceptable what the priorities are etc etc okay anything else that I should have asked that I haven't asked you know we didn't talk about culture and how uh how the you know culture we didn't talk about performance a lot and how this drives performance but I do think it's worth saying that you know a company exists for a reason and some companies exist for profitability some Co companies exist for um for you know social benefit some are nonprofit companies that exist for uh that that nonprofit purpose um but organizations probably better said than companies organizations exist for a reason and when we try to turn that reason into something else we've got to ask if that shouldn't be another organization doing that work right and so I think when you know I think you've heard me say a man who chases two rabbits catches neither I think that's an idiom or expression that comes confus confusious confus gets credit with a lot of things I don't know if that's true or not I haven't looked it up so does Mark Twain and Ben Franklin just just give it to them it's it's one of them somebody other than me said that a man who chases two rabbits catches neither and it really stuck with me that you know that that visual when you really think about it and so if some so I think I think a Leader's job is keeping keeping the organization pointed at at the destination you know an airplane can't land at two airports at once it can go one than the other but it can't land in two places at once that are different places and so sh same thing and and they're both being constantly battered by the weather and so this real Clarity of you know what we value how we're going to get there and then we talk about in the role of a leader outcomes and Direction and all these measurement and those things as well but but I think that you know this is for a purpose right toward a purpose and so core values are just they they're one tool among many that are really and a far-reaching really important tool but it can really provide a really solid anchor for everyone in the company if the leadership allows it to okay well John thank you so much I I think this has been great I I would encourage people out there that just if you've never dipped your toe in this dip your toe in dive head first whatever your style is I know I can just tell you personally it's been incredibly beneficial right it's hard work it is it is but it's the payoff is worth it at the end right and so dig in […] and reach out to connect like I'm I'm free to talk yeah great so thank you for your time until next time yep thanks Randy

Core Values and Culture

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